Posted on 12/16/2009 7:16:21 PM PST by Silly
There are plenty of people today who don't believe in the Bible's teaching on everlasting punishment, even those who do find it an unreal and a remote concept.
In 2003 a research group discovered 64% of Americans expect to go to heaven when they die, but less than 1% think they might go to hell. Not only are there plenty of people today who don't believe in the Bible's teaching on everlasting punishment, even those who do find it an unreal and a remote concept. Nevertheless, it is a very important part of the Christian faith, for several reasons.
1. It is important because Jesus taught about it more than all other Biblical authors put together. Jesus speaks of "eternal fire and punishment" as the final abode of the angels and human beings who have rejected God (Matthew 25:41,46) He says that those who give into sin will be in danger of the "fire of hell" (Matthew 5:22; 18:8-9.) The word Jesus uses for 'hell' is Gehenna, a valley in which piles of garbage were daily burned as well as the corpses of those without families who could bury them. In Mark 9:43 Jesus speaks of a person going to "hell [gehenna], where 'their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' " Jesus is referring to the maggots that live in the corpses on the garbage heap. When all the flesh is consumed, the maggots die. Jesus is saying, however, that the spiritual decomposition of hell never ends, and that is why 'their worm does not die.'
If Jesus, the Lord of Love and Author of Grace spoke about hell more often, and in a more vivid, blood-curdling manner than anyone else, it must be a crucial truth. In Matthew 10:28 Jesus says, "Do not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." He is speaking to disciples, some of whom will eventually be tortured, sawn in half, flayed and burned alive. Yet, he says, that is a picnic compared to hell. Clearly, for Jesus hell was a real place, since he said that after judgment day people would experience it in their bodies. Hell is a place not only of physical but also of spiritual misery.
Jesus constantly depicted hell as painful fire and "outer darkness" (Matt 25:30; cf. Jude 6,7,13,) a place of unimaginably terrible misery and unhappiness. If Jesus, the Lord of Love and Author of Grace spoke about hell more often, and in a more vivid, blood-curdling manner than anyone else, it must be a crucial truth. But why was it so important to Jesus?
2. It is important because it shows how infinitely dependent we are on God for everything. Virtually all commentators and theologians believe that the Biblical images of fire and outer darkness are metaphorical. (Since souls are in hell right now, without bodies, how could the fire be literal, physical fire?) Even Jonathan Edwards pointed out that the Biblical language for hell was symbolic, but, he added, 'when metaphors are used in Scripture about spiritual things . . . they fall short of the literal truth." (from "The Torments of Hell are Exceeding Great" in volume 14 of the Yale edition of Edwards works.) To say that the Scriptural image of hell-fire is not wholly literal is of no comfort whatsoever. The reality will be far worse than the image. What, then, are the 'fire' and 'darkness' symbols for? They are vivid ways to describe what happens when we lose the presence of God. Darkness refers to the isolation, and fire to the disintegration of being separated from God. Away from the favor and face of God, we literally, horrifically, and endlessly fall apart.
In the teaching of Jesus the ultimate condemnation from the mouth of God is 'depart from me.' That is remarkable--to simply be away from God is the worst thing that can happen to us! Why? We were originally created to walk in God's immediate presence (Genesis 2.) In one sense, of course, God is everywhere and upholds everything. Only in him do we all speak and move and have our being (Acts 17:28.) In that sense, then, it is impossible to depart from the Lord; even hell cannot exist unless God upholds it. But the Bible says sin excludes us from God's 'face' (Isaiah 59:2.) All the life, joy, love, strength, and meaning we have looked for and longed for is found in his face (Psalm 16:11)-that is, in his favor, presence, fellowship, and pleasure.
Sin removes us from that aspect of his power that sustains and supports us. It is to us as water is to a fish-away from it our life slowly ebbs away. That is what has been happening to us throughout history. That is why, for Paul, the everlasting fire and destruction of hell is 'exclusion from the presence of the Lord." (2 Thessalonians 1:9.) Separation from God and his blessings forever is the reality to which all the symbols point. For example, when Jesus speaks being 'destroyed' in hell, the word used is apollumi, meaning not to be annihilated out of existence but to be 'totaled' and ruined so as to be useless for its intended purpose.
The image of 'gehenna' and 'maggots' means decomposition. Once a body is dead it loses its beauty and strength and coherence, it begins to break into its constituent parts, to stink and to disintegrate. So what is a 'totaled' human soul? It does not cease to exist, but rather becomes completely incapable of all the things a human soul is for--reasoning, feeling, choosing, giving or receiving love or joy. Why? Because the human soul was built for worshipping and enjoying the true God, and all truly human life flows from that. In this world, all of humanity, even those who have turned away from God, still are supported by 'kindly providences' or 'common grace' (Acts 14:16-17; Psalm 104:10-30; James 1:17) keeping us still capable of wisdom, love, joy, and goodness. But when we lose God's supportive presence all together, the result is hell.
3. It is important because it unveils the seriousness and danger of living life for yourself. In Romans 1-2 Paul explains that God, in his wrath against those who reject him, 'gives them up' to the sinful passions of their hearts. Commentators (cf. Douglas Moo) point out that this cannot mean God impels people to sin, since in Ephesians 4:19 it is said that sinners give themselves up to their sinful desires. It means that the worst (and fairest) punishment God can give a person is to allow them their sinful hearts' deepest desire.
What is that? The desire of the sinful human heart is for independence. We want to choose and go our own way (Isaiah 53:6.) This is no idle 'wandering from the path.' As Jeremiah puts it, 'No one repents . . . each pursues his own course like a horse charging into battle. (8:6)' (We want to get away from God-but, as we have seen, this is the very thing that is most destructive to us. Cain is warned not to sin because sin is slavery. (Genesis 4:7; John 8:34.) It destroys your ability to choose, love, enjoy. Sin also brings blindness-the more you reject the truth about God the more incapable you are of perceiving any truth about yourself or the world (Isaiah 29:9-10; Romans 1:21.)
What is hell, then? It is God actively giving us up to what we have freely chosen-to go our own way, be our own "the master of our fate, the captain of our soul," to get away from him and his control. It is God banishing us to regions we have desperately tried to get into all our lives. J.I.Packer writes: "Scripture sees hell as self-chosen . . . [H]ell appears as God's gesture of respect for human choice. All receive what they actually chose, either to be with God forever, worshipping him, or without God forever, worshipping themselves." (J.I.Packer, Concise Theology p.262-263.) If the thing you most want is to worship God in the beauty of his holiness, then that is what you will get (Ps 96:9-13.) If the thing you most want is to be your own master, then the holiness of God will become an agony, and the presence of God a terror you will flee forever (Rev 6:16; cf. Is 6:1-6.)
Why is this so extremely important to stress in our preaching and teaching today? The idea of hell is implausible to people because they see it as unfair that infinite punishment would be meted out for comparably minor, finite false steps (like not embracing Christianity.) Also, almost no one knows anyone (including themselves) that seem to be bad enough to merit hell. But the Biblical teaching on hell answers both of these objections. First, it tells us that people only get in the afterlife what they have most wanted-either to have God as Savior and Master or to be their own Saviors and Masters. Secondly, it tells us that hell is a natural consequence. Even in this world it is clear that self-centeredness rather than God-centeredness makes you miserable and blind. The more self-centered, self-absorbed, self-pitying, and self-justifying people are, the more breakdowns occur, relationally, psychologically, and even physically. They also go deeper into denial about the source of their problems.
On the other hand, a soul that has decided to center its life on God and his glory moves toward increasing joy and wholeness. We can see both of these 'trajectories' even in this life. But if, as the Bible teaches, our souls will go on forever, then just imagine where these two kinds of souls will be in a billion years. Hell is simply one's freely chosen path going on forever. We wanted to get away from God, and God, in his infinite justice, sends us where we wanted to go.
In the parable of Luke 16:19ff, Jesus tells us of a rich man who goes to hell and who is now in torment and horrible thirst because of the fire (v.24) But there are interesting insights into what is going on in his soul. He urges Abraham to send a messenger to go and warn his still-living brothers about the reality of hell. Commentators have pointed out that this is not a gesture of compassion, but rather an effort at blame-shifting. He is saying that he did not have a chance, he did not have adequate information to avoid hell. That is clearly his point, because Abraham says forcefully that people in this life have been well-informed through the Scriptures. It is intriguing to find exactly what we would expect-even knowing he is in hell and knowing God has sent him there, he is deeply in denial, angry at God, unable to admit that it was a just decision, wishing he could be less miserable (v.24) but in no way willing to repent or seek the presence of God.
I believe one of the reasons the Bible tells us about hell is so it can act like 'smelling salts' about the true danger and seriousness of even minor sins. However, I've found that only stressing the symbols of hell (fire and darkness) in preaching rather than going into what the symbols refer to (eternal, spiritual decomposition) actually prevents modern people from finding hell a deterrent. Some years ago I remember a man who said that talk about the fires of hell simply didn't scare him, it seemed too far-fetched, even silly. So I read him lines from C.S. Lewis:
Hell begins with a grumbling mood, always complaining, always blaming others . . . but you are still distinct from it. You may even criticize it in yourself and wish you could stop it. But there may come a day when you can no longer. Then there will be no you left to criticize the mood or even to enjoy it, but just the grumble itself, going on forever like a machine. It is not a question of God 'sending us' to hell. In each of us there is something growing, which will BE Hell unless it is nipped in the bud.
To my surprise he got very quiet and said, "Now that scares me to death." He almost immediately began to see that hell was a) perfectly fair and just, and b) something that he realized he might be headed for if he didn't change. If we really want skeptics and non-believers to be properly frightened by hell, we cannot simply repeat over and over that 'hell is a place of fire.' We must go deeper into the realities that the Biblical images represent. When we do so, we will find that even secular people can be affected.
We run from the presence of God and therefore God actively gives us up to our desire (Romans 1:24, 26.) Hell is therefore a prison in which the doors are first locked from the inside by us and therefore are locked from the outside by God (Luke 16:26.) Every indication is that those doors continue to stay forever barred from the inside. Though every knee and tongue in hell knows that Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:10-11,) no one can seek or want that Lordship without the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3.This is why we can say that no one goes to hell who does not choose both to go and to stay there. What could be more fair than that?
4. The doctrine of hell is important because it is the only way to know how much Jesus loved us and how much he did for us. In Matthew 10:28 Jesus says that no physical destruction can be compared with the spiritual destruction of hell, of losing the presence of God. But this is exactly what happened to Jesus on the cross-he was forsaken by the Father (Matthew 27:46.) In Luke 16:24 the rich man in hell is desperately thirsty (v.24) and on the cross Jesus said "I thirst" (John 19:28.) The water of life, the presence of God, was taken from him. The point is this. Unless we come to grips with this "terrible" doctrine, we will never even begin to understand the depths of what Jesus did for us on the cross. His body was being destroyed in the worst possible way, but that was a flea bite compared to what was happening to his soul. When he cried out that his God had forsaken him he was experiencing hell itself. But consider--if our debt for sin is so great that it is never paid off there, but our hell stretches on for eternity, then what are we to conclude from the fact that Jesus said the payment was "finished" (John 19:30) after only three hours? We learn that what he felt on the cross was far worse and deeper than all of our deserved hells put together.
And this makes emotional sense when we consider the relationship he lost. If a mild acquaintance denounces you and rejects you--that hurts. If a good friend does the same--that hurts far worse. However, if your spouse walks out on you saying, "I never want to see you again," that is far more devastating still. The longer, deeper, and more intimate the relationship, the more tortuous is any separation. But the Son's relationship with the Father was beginningless and infinitely greater than the most intimate and passionate human relationship. When Jesus was cut off from God he went into the deepest pit and most powerful furnace, beyond all imagining. He experienced the full wrath of the Father. And he did it voluntarily, for us.
Fairly often I meet people who say, "I have a personal relationship with a loving God, and yet I don't believe in Jesus Christ at all." Why, I ask? "My God is too loving to pour out infinite suffering on anyone for sin." But this shows a deep misunderstanding of both God and the cross. On the cross, God HIMSELF, incarnated as Jesus, took the punishment. He didn't visit it on a third party, however willing.
So the question becomes: what did it cost your kind of god to love us and embrace us? What did he endure in order to receive us? Where did this god agonize, cry out, and where were his nails and thorns? The only answer is: "I don't think that was necessary." But then ironically, in our effort to make God more loving, we have made him less loving. His love, in the end, needed to take no action. It was sentimentality, not love at all. The worship of a god like this will be at most impersonal, cognitive, and ethical. There will be no joyful self-abandonment, no humble boldness, no constant sense of wonder. We could not sing to him "love so amazing, so divine, demands my soul, my life, my all." Only through the cross could our separation from God be removed, and we will spend all eternity loving and praising God for what he has done (Rev 5:9-14.)
And if Jesus did not experience hell itself for us, then we ourselves are devalued. In Isaiah, we are told, "The results of his suffering he shall see, and shall be satisfied" (Isaiah 53:11). This is a stupendous thought. Jesus suffered infinitely more than any human soul in eternal hell, yet he looks at us and says, "It was worth it." What could make us feel more loved and valued than that? The Savior presented in the gospel waded through hell itself rather than lose us, and no other savior ever depicted has loved us at such a cost.
Conclusion The doctrine of hell is crucial-without it we can't understand our complete dependence on God, the character and danger of even the smallest sins, and the true scope of the costly love of Jesus. Nevertheless, it is possible to stress the doctrine of hell in unwise ways. Many, for fear of doctrinal compromise, want to put all the emphasis on God's active judgment, and none on the self-chosen character of hell. Ironically, as we have seen, this unBiblical imbalance often makes it less of a deterrent to non-believers rather than more of one. And some can preach hell in such a way that people reform their lives only out of a self-interested fear of avoiding consequences, not out of love and loyalty to the one who embraced and experienced hell in our place. The distinction between those two motives is all-important. The first creates a moralist, the second a born-again believer.
We must come to grips with the fact that Jesus said more about hell than Daniel, Isaiah, Paul, John, Peter put together. Before we dismiss this, we have to realize we are saying to Jesus, the pre-eminent teacher of love and grace in history, "I am less barbaric than you, Jesus--I am more compassionate and wiser than you." Surely that should give us pause! Indeed, upon reflection, it is because of the doctrine of judgment and hell that Jesus' proclamations of grace and love are so astounding.
Rather, I am comforted by the following:
Salvation-
John 3:5
Titus 3:5
Eph 4:23
I Cor 9:27 & 10:12
Hebrews 10:26
Philippians 2:12
2 Cor 5:10
Rom 2:6, 5:12, 8:24, 11:22
Col 2:23
2 Macabees 12:44-46 (not in KJV)
Penance-
Luke 3:8, 13:3, 24:47
Acts 2:38, 3:19, 8:21-22, 17:30
2 Cor 7:10
Matt 3:8
Ps 6:7
Jer 7:3
Confession-
John 20:23
Matt 16:19 & 18:18
2 Cor 5:18-20
Have you read enough of it to have a point? It is described several ways. A place where you are separated from God, a place of torment, a place where the worm dieth not, a deep fiery pit.
The Bibles point (on hell) is that you don’t want to go there.
Sophomoric reply. Fear is to respect, to know that someone is more powerful. Should you ‘fear’ your Creator, I would say a resounding ‘Yes!’. He is loving, and also just. It is just that should you fall short, that you not spend eternity with Him.
Yet you say that needing to have ‘fear and trembling’ makes God sound like his opposite number?
That opposite number requires nothing from you at all, except that you ignore God, refuse His Son. Is that you? I pray not. That opposite number HATES you, wishes you to die, not only here, but for eternity. He requires no ‘fear’ from you at all.
Accept Christ and work out your salvation wiith fear and trembling. He desires to lose not one.
God WILL keep after you, but He also says that eventually He will let your heart harden and turn you over to a reprobate mind. That’s why it is so important to listen, to have the ears to hear, when He knocks on your heart.
That is the time to let Him in! Even a parent will eventually write off a prodigal. Allow the child to reap ALL that he has sown. Consider it a learning experience. Maybe that is what it takes, a broken, bottomed-out life, where there is no where else to look but up, to God and His Son, and ask for help and forgiveness.
Yes, God will let you run and eventually ruin your life. Be thankful for that.
Amen presently. He has so many lies that are twisted around things that would be nice to believe, lies twisted around what we want, and just twisted lies.
Prayer is a great weapon. Jesus used it during His 40 days in the wilderness.
As a fun aside, we should bear witness of Christ to others. Not only do I use prayer during temptations, but since those temptations are from satan, I will also withness to him. “Let me tell you of my Saviour!” I enjoy the visuals I get of him leaving mad.
Morals have naught to do with it, that is the point. It is only through the sacrifice, the Perfect Sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb of God, that Salvation can be received.
Live a good life, it is for naught for eternity.
With Christ, there is no slip up, Salvation is given, not removed. Having said that, it is not a green light to live as you would. A Saved person, born again in Christ, will WANT to live as it is written in the Bible.
“Slip-ups” happen, repentence happens, forgiveness asked and given. No loss of Salvation.
It is ONLY through the refusal of belief in Gods Son, who died to remove your sins, that you will be granted the access you deserve to hell.
Since we are missing the point of all of Scripture, why don't you humor us and explain what it is we are missing?
But He won't force you. It's gotta be your decision--not His.
Once your life ends, that's it. The time for decisions is over. The time for sentencing begins.
Fear is a word. A word that can have many uses, meanings, depending upon context and intent. Fear is the English word used. Go back to the Greek or Hebrew, which can be very rich in meanings, compared to our poorer language.
LOL at your analysis.
It’s a place and it is real.
Absolutely. The Bible is 100% accurate and cannot be questioned. Simple logic leads one to that conclusion. Anyone who thinks that the Bible is NOT 100% accurate isn't using logic.
Hell is where those who stand by man's logic, instead of the Bible's (and God's) logic go.
Thank you for the exchange.
What I ALWAYS find amusing is that when it comes to HEAVEN, well that is a REAL PLACE. But misleading clergy and others will do their dammest, to have you believe that ONLY HELL is a “state of mind”. LOL!
BOTH are real places!
You either go to hell or you go to heaven.
When you exhale your last breathe, your destination is determined. No one on earth can change that after you are dead. To be absent from th ebody is to be PRESENT with the Lord and the converse is true as well if you are an unbeliever. The assumption for this verse below is that you are a believer:
2Cor.5:8
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
There is nothing in between.
My whole point is, how could you reject God if you actually met him in person. You couldn’t. That is my point.
I understand we are called upon to embrace God by our faith. Doubting Thomas was lesser because he could only embrace Christ after experiencing him first hand in person, and not on faith. And I understand how crucial it is we have faith.
But I am not prepared to believe that hell is for people who reject Christ out of hand from pure ignorance. And most are in that category. There isn’t a single person on this earth who would not embrace Christ with violent vigor if they met him in person. It would be impossible to do otherwise after feeling his love in person. Adolph Hitler would be actively saving Jewish People after he met Christ.
You can’t reject chocolate you have never eaten, because you don’t know how good it is.
That is my point. You can’t truly reject Christ from ignorance, because you have no 1st hand experience to do so.
I am not asking others to believe what I believe. All I am saying is, NOBODY would reject Christ if they met him. It would be flat impossible. People who reject Christ do so from complete and utter ignorance. And it is inconceivable to me that God could do such a thing.
I understand that my beliefs are not in accord with my Catholic religion and teaching whereby you must acccept Christ as your Savior by your faith and you have free will to reject him, and condemn yourself to hell. This is what the article says and what all of you also believe. I am saying I find it hard to believe. As my parents would never let me make a grievous error born our of supreme ignorance, I find it hard to believe that God would even be capable of such a thing.
This is my enigma.
Judas Iscariot did.
Pharisees did
The rich young ruler did
Romans did
While I (think I) understand your argument, I also do not believe it holds much water as there are plenty of examples of the exact opposite.
Lucifer was 2nd in command and he rejected God the Father. He was actually in the courts, and Lucifer rejected God.
In terms of what happens to people who have never heard of Christ, or of God, I honestly do not know. However, I also know that (luckily for me) that decision is not up to me. It's up to God. He will make the correct decision with regard to them.
Since I have heard of Christ, and of God, I do believe that I will be judged by Him based on what I do know. It is not my place to judge God, but His to judge me.
You are probably correct, yet, when told of the Gospel, many people will refuse it. There is no ignorance there, but willful refusal.
Missionary work is important for that reason, spreading the Gospel. Radio, TV, the interwebz are important. It is my own humble belief that, at the core you are right, BUT, when all present on the planet have had the opportunity to hear of Jesus and decide, He will come again.
Oh, that all would realize their need for a Saviour when presented with the Gospel for the first time. Would that that had been true of me. It was not.
We are not priviledged to see the Lord, as the 12 Disciples did (not yet anyway). But we are to believe, try to live and behave as He would, so others may perhaps catch just a poor glimpse of Him through us. We should, to all extent and purpose BE that ‘First Hand Experience’, telling of His Love and our need for Salvation.
You need have no enigma if you understand that without Jesus, there is no Salvation, we are ALL sinners, bound for Hell. The Law given to live by offers Condemnation for any lapse. Break one, just once, you have broken them all. Knowingly tell a lie as a young person, you’ve sinned. And you could offer sacrifice, whereby the death of a ‘perfect’, ‘innocent’ lamb or goat-kid could be killed to cover your sin. Not erase it, but cover.
God knew we would need to have a way to Salvation, and sent His Son. Jesus came to earth, took on fleash, lived as a man, endured temptations, hunger, pain, ridicule, offenses to his person, and ultimately was crucified and died on the cross at Calvary. Through it all, He never sinned, He was the Perfect Sacrifice God demanded to erase our sins and allow us to come to Him.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth would not perish but have everlasting life.
Imagine loving people that have no love for you at all, and loving them so much that you allow your own son to die at their hands so that they may live. Astonishing!! Perhaps that explains that, should you choose to turn awy from Jesus and His sacrifice, that Heaven will not be part of your eternal itinerary.
What are the thoughts of the posters here regarding “Conditionalism?” I understand the doctrine to teach, in part, that the damned will be punished for a period warranted by the seriousness of their sins then annihilated. This doctrine seems to satisfy both justice and mercy.
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