Posted on 12/16/2009 7:38:57 AM PST by PanzerKardinal
A "Progressive" Anglican church in Auckland New Zealand paid to have this billboard placed near their parish.
Here are some excerpts written by the Vicar, Archdeacon Glynn Cardy on the church's website touting what he did.
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To make the news at Christmas it seems a priest just needs to question the literalness of a virgin giving birth. Many in society mistakenly think that to challenge literalism is to challenge the norms of Christianity. What progressive interpretations try to do however is remove the supernatural obfuscation and delve into the deeper spiritual truth of this festival.
Christian fundamentalism believes a supernatural male God who lived above sent his sperm into the womb of the virgin Mary. Although there were a series of miraculous events surrounding Jesus’ birth – like wandering stars and angelic choirs – the real miracle was his death and literal resurrection 33 years later. The importance of this literal resurrection is the belief that it was a cosmic transaction whereby the male God embraced humanity only after being satiated by Jesus’ innocent blood.
Progressive Christianity is distinctive in that not only does it articulate a clear view it is also interested in engaging with those who differ. Its vision is one of robust engagement. If every Christian thought the same not only would life be deadly boring but also the fullness of God would be diminished. This is the consequence of its incarnational theology: God is among us; even among those we disagree with or dislike.
(Excerpt) Read more at stmatthews.org.nz ...
As a Freemason I have my own squabbles with Mormonism, but that doesn’t entitle me to say they aren’t Christians.
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You’ve lived in a country that doesnt have the freedoms of the US Constitution too long...
I am free to say the mormons are not Christians...
Would that be Fr. Meuli in Titirangi? I remember him well. He used to be in Three Kings before the bishop exiled him. That was back in the '80s.
He's at the other extreme. He was a good man who went off the rails. The last treatise I saw from him was an essay that said the Novus Ordo was not a valid Mass and that the Pope was in error. He's out there on the fringe. There seems to be very little sane middle ground in Auckland from what I've seen.
On what basis would you assert that Mormons aren’t Christian? They certainly do believe in Christ.
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They do not believe in the Jesus Christ of the Christian Bble...
The mormon jesus is like a New Age jesus...
merely a “spirit guide” at best...
But not the savior of mankind...
and Jesus is not God to them...
The mormons are their own saviors...
and they are future gods...
“There are those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Christ.
No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.”
– LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley (LDS Church News, June 20, 1998)
On what basis would you assert that Mormons aren’t Christian? _____________________________________________________
They said so themselves...
Joey Smith on Christianity...
I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” (Joseph Smith Pearl of great Price (JS History 1:20):
Some other mormon denouncements on Christianity...
1. “I was answered that I must join none of them (Christian churches), for they were all wrong…their creeds were an abomination in [God’s] sight; that those professors were all corrupt” (Joseph Smith—History 1:19).
2. “Orthodox Christian views of God are pagan rather than Christian” (Mormon Doctrine of Deity, B. H. Roberts [General Authority], 116).
3. “Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast” (Journal of Discourses, John Taylor [3rd Mormon President], 13:225).
4. “The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon” (Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, Orson Pratt, n. 6, 84).
5. “All the priests who adhere to the sectarian [Christian] religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels” (The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith, ed. Vol. 1, n. 4, 60).
6. [Under the heading, “Church of the Devil,” Apostle Bruce R. McConkie lists:] “The Roman Catholic Church specifically—singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5)” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, 129).
7. “Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls (Morm. 8; Moro. 8)” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, Bruce R. McConkie, 177).
If Mormons say they are Christians then who am I to argue?
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Oh I dunno...
You had no trouble calling me a liar when I said I was brought up in a Christian home...
Moreover, a careful reading of Genesis seems to indicate that God considers relevant “time” to have begun with spiritual man, or even, civilized man, when God provided the earth with a gardener. Which is why the “age” of the rocks, fossils, created matter is largely irrelevant to any spiritual creation
In THAT case, if Christians say that mormons are NOT Christian, who are you to argue?
Christ WILL judge, but in the meantime, it's up to Christians to rebuke the lie that is being spread far and wide by mormons who spent over a century disrespecting and castigating Christianity and claiming to have the "one, true and "restored" church and priesthood.
The FReepers who are quick to jump on the "mormons can be called Christian if they want to be" are silent when the mormon church disavows the splinter groups like the FLDS whose doctrine remains much closer to Joseph Smith's "one true restored church" and refuses to allow them under the "mormon umbrella."
NZ is heavily mormon and has been for decades. Perhaps that influences some opinions.
Nana: I was brought up in a Christian home in New Zealand...
DHH, #56: What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The mere fact that you say so doesn’t make it true.
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Kid seems that there just may be times you do feel entitled, etc...
ping!
> NZ is heavily mormon and has been for decades. Perhaps that influences some opinions.
Not mine.
> In THAT case, if Christians say that mormons are NOT Christian, who are you to argue?
A Christian who says they are, because they say they are.
If they say they are Christians, then they will be judged by that standard. And we as Christians are foolish indeed to judge them. And they would be foolish indeed to want to be judged by the Christian standard if they aren’t Christian.
Judgment is not easier for the Christian, it is harder.
You got Bible scripture for any of that ???
> You had no trouble calling me a liar when I said I was brought up in a Christian home...
Nice try, didn’t work tho’. As you well know, you weren’t called a liar by me for your claim to being brought up in Auckland in a Christian home — so I guess you have something else to repent for.
To avoid all doubt, these are the two assertions that aren’t necessarily so, just because you say so:
>> This blasphemeous gimmick is not Christian...
>>
>> and its not Anglican..
There are key doctrinal criteria that define if a denomination or religion is Christian or not and that judgement is commanded by the Apostles in the NT.
1. Who is Christ? Their own late prophet Hinkley stated they do not worship the same Jesus as Christianity (first clue). Mormon Jesus is not God the Son, Second Person of the Trinity, but is ontologically the same as you and I and the devil. A created being, never eternally God.
2. Who is God? Mormonism believes that the universe is populated by an uncountable number of Gods, each tending to their own planet and making spirit children with their multiple wives. Christianity is monotheistic trinitarinism - One God, three Persons who share the same - for a lack of a better word - essence that is God.
3. Mormon teachings are that they are the only 'true' Christian. Until recently Christian denominations and believers were openly hostile. This changed as the general public has become more aware of these open attacks and mormon prosyltizing and pr has changed to soften their exterior presentation. Until 1990, in their temple ceremony a protestant minister was depicted in the pay of the devil.
These are just three quick comparisons. One could just about go line by line on nearly all of their doctrines and find that they are diametrically opposed to Christianity.
They will be judged by Christ by His standards, the standards he applies to His followers —
And they have, by the standards found in the Bible. Remember Jesus also said to those who said they were His followers - depart from me, I never knew you.
Well, judging seems to come quite easily to those who judge us for using OUR judgement.
I'll answer to God. Those who feel compelled to ignore decades of non-Christian behavior and hateful speech against all Christians by mormon leaders and carry their water won't influence my judgement.
> He’s at the other extreme. He was a good man who went off the rails. The last treatise I saw from him was an essay that said the Novus Ordo was not a valid Mass and that the Pope was in error. He’s out there on the fringe. There seems to be very little sane middle ground in Auckland from what I’ve seen.
I attended once, and decided that Latin Mass looked interesting but I’d need to brush up on Latin first. I wasn’t aware of these other concerns (but maybe I’m not too surprised.)
This might explain why the Catholicism I see on FRee Republic is fairly straightforward and deeply profound, whereas here in Auckland I’ve found discussion confusing.
One example, Freemasonry. Ask any Catholic on FRee Republic, you will get a straight answer: “No. Not for Catholics”. And then the reasons are given. I don’t like or accept the reasons necessarily, but they are logical and well thought out.
I didn’t get that same, well thought out response here.
Lots to think about. There are a few priests from the Philippines out here now: I understand they are fairly conventional, and it might be worth me meeting with one someday.
Well, obviously that second line is so...but if we leave everything up to "self-identification" then the lines become so blurred distinctions become irrelevant.
MBraynard was a Freeper a few years ago who made a similar claim...I responded to him: Tell you what. Since everything is self-identifying, you & I can form a new group: Mormon Jews for Jesus! We’ll send off press releases to the various Jewish groups around the nation. In those releases, we’ll tell them that we’ll commence “baptizing” deceased Jewish victims of the holocaust in our new temporary temples. (I’m sure they’ll “rejoice” at such news and provide needed genealogical information!)"
My obvious point to Mr. Braynard was that just as the Jews don't think "Jewishness" is a self-identifying trait...
...likewise, Mr. Hinckley, the deceased Lds "prophet" tried to tell Larry King on CNN there were no such thing as "fundamentalist Mormons" because he didn't want Mormonism to be a self-identifying trait, either...
...likewise, DieHard, can't you appreciate that some faith boundaries must exist?
'Cause if not, let's all just join the new religion of Ecumenicalism. Here, I'm your new ecumenical guru. Copy down my "lecture" notes for you: A fundamentalist Mormon-is-a-Mormon-is-a-Christian-is-a-Jonestownite-is-a-Branch-Davidian-is-a-Heavens-Gate-ian-is-a-Urantia believer-is a Church Universal & Triumphant-is-a-Wicca-Witch-is-Voodoo practioner-is -a-New-Ager-is-a-whirling dervish-is-a-Hindu-is-a-Sikh-is-a-Muslim!) (Whew!!)
[And you may have thought religious pantheism was dead!)
> And they have, by the standards found in the Bible. Remember Jesus also said to those who said they were His followers - depart from me, I never knew you.
Possibly we are approaching this same argument by different angles, because I don’t disagree with this.
Yes, they will be judged by the Christian standards that they claim they operate to. Possibly at their peril.
We all run a similar peril, tho’ — and we have to be careful that we don’t fool ourselves into thinking we are doing what Christ wants just because we label ourselves “Christians” — rather like those who called out “Lord! Lord!” in that passage you just cited.
Labels aren’t what saves us, and actually neither are our works. Grace does. Our works only happen as an evidentiary byproduct of our Faith, which is in turn a demonstration of our belief in Grace.
The Label is merely a convenient way for us to identify ourselves.
In a nutshell, that’s what I believe on that subject. I don’t know how it synchronizes with your belief, but the passage that you quoted signaled we might actually agree more than disagree.
Dunno.
As you well know, you weren’t called a liar by me for your claim to being brought up in Auckland in a Christian home
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I would hope not...
I never said that I was brought up in Auckland...
However you did call me a liar for saying I was brought up in a Christian home...
a mormon cicular thingy...
A mormon argument...
Mormons are nor going to admit they are not Christians ...
and do not believe in the Biblical Jesus...
Let’s see what else the mormons wont tell you about what they believe...
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they believe your Church is wrong, your Christian creeds are abomination to God, and you pastor or Priest is a hireling of Satan.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that there is salvation only in their church - all others are wrong.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that those who have been through their temples are wearing secret underwear to protect themselves from “evil”. This “evil” includes non - Mormons like you.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU about their secret temple rites at all. If they did, you would spot them as non Christians immediately.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they think “familiar spirits” are good, and that their Book of Mormon has a “familiar spirit”. Leviticus 19:31 says familiar spirits defile one, and are to be avoided at all costs.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that women receive salvation only through their Mormon husbands, and must remain pregnant for all eternity.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they intend to be gods themselves some day, and are helping to earn their exaltation to godhood by talking to you.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they intend to have many wives in heaven, carrying on multiple sex relations throughout eternity, until they have enough children to populate their own earth, so they can be “Heavenly Father” over their own planet!
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that you were once a spirit - child of their heavenly father, and one of his numerous wives before you were born on earth.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that the Virgin Mary really wasn’t a virgin at all but had sex relations with their heavenly father to produce the Mormon version of Jesus Christ
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they believe Jesus had at least three wives and children while he was on this earth.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that the “heavenly father” they ask you to pray to with them, is really an exalted man that lives on a planet near the star base Kolob, and is not the Heavenly Father of the Bible at all.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that Jesus was really Lucifer’s brother in the spirit world, and it was only due to a “heavenly council” vote that Jesus became our redeemer instead of Satan!!
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that there are over one hundred divisions in Mormonism. They conveniently “forget” this while criticizing the many denominations within the body of Christ
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that all their so- called scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and even their official “Mormon Doctrine” statements contradict each other on MAJOR doctrinal points. The King James Bible is likewise contradicted.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that the reason the Book of Mormon has no maps is because there is not one scrap of archaeological evidence to support it!
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that the state of Utah, which is predominately Mormon, has a higher than the national average of wife-beating, child abuse, and teenage suicide.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that their prophet Joseph Smith was heavily involved in the occult when he founded Mormonism.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that that they encourage visitations from dead relatives from the “spirit world”, a practice forbidden in the Bible. (Deuteronomy 18:10-12.)
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that there are many accounts of Joseph Smith’s first vision besides the one they present to you, and all are different
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that their secret temple oaths are based on the Scottish Rite Masons.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that before 1978 they considered the Negro race inferior, and even one drop of Negro blood prevented a person from entering their priesthood.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they expect Christ to return to their temple in Missouri, but they haven’t built the temple He’s supposed to return to, because they don’t own the property. (It is owned by the “Temple Lot Mormons” who have plans of their own, and won’t let the Salt Lake City group buy it).
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they consider the Bible to be untrustworthy and full of errors.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that Jesus’ death on the cross only partially saves the believer.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that that according to Anton Lavey’s Satanic Bible, the demon god of the living dead is called “Mormo”. Is it just a coincidence that the Mormons are so concerned with the dead?
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that on their Salt Lake City Temple they prominently display an upside-down star which is a Satanic symbol known as the Goat’s head. Why?
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that they believe the Archangel Michael came down to earth with several of his celestial wives, and became Adam in the garden of Eden.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that that they believe the angel Gabriel came down to earth and became Noah in the days of the flood.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that their Prophet Joseph Smith prophesied falsely many times. For example, he foretold the second coming of Christ for 1891. The Bible teaches that one false prophecy puts the prophet under death sentence. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that their Prophet Joseph Smith did not die as a martyr as they claim, but was killed during a gun battle in which he himself killed two men and wounded a third.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU about the Mountain Meadows Massacre in which they brutally murdered an innocent wagon train of settlers, of over one hundred men, women, and most of the children, traveling through Utah.
MORMONS WON’T TELL YOU that Joseph Smith taught that there were inhabitants on the moon, and Brigham Young taught there were inhabitants on the sun as well!
WHY WON’T MORMONS TELL YOU THESE THINGS?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormons, are well aware that if these facts were known to the convert prior to baptism, they would have very few converts! The Missionaries are well trained to keep most of these facts from their potential converts.
Tragically, many Mormons may not even be fully aware of the doctrines and history of their own church. Every statement on this tract is true. Mormons are encouraged to check out their own publications for documentation of the above. After all, if the Mormon Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) has the truth, it can stand any amount of investigation.
Oh and about the Trinity...
It is important to Christianity...
Those who do not believe in the Trinity are not Christians...
Mormons dont believe in the Trinity...
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Now isnt that interesting...
I say again about the billboard...
This blasphemeous gimmick is not Christian...
and its not Anglican..
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