Can Catholics Be Christians?

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church ^

[Gamecock]

I just came from a funeral service for an aunt of mine who was a staunch Catholic. I came out of that religion about 25 years ago after reading for myself what the Bible had to say. My question surrounds the actuality of salvation for all the millions who still practice Mary worship and so forth. Knowing that one cannot serve two masters, I wonder at how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way, while they continue to believe that the church of Rome is solely responsible for their eternal welfare.

Answer:

Greetings in Christ Jesus our Lord and only Savior. Thank you for your question.

Unless a person is clearly outside the pale of the Christian faith, I do not believe that you can judge the "actuality" or "reality" of someone's salvation. You may judge the "credibility" of their faith; or you may question the "probability" of someone's salvation. You may also ask, as you have done, "how it is possible that the aforementioned can really experience Christ in a saving way."

None of us, however, can truly say that we are perfect in knowledge or practice. We are always growing both in wisdom and in the grace of God. Is it possible for someone who prays to Mary to be a true Christian? In other words, can someone who is truly saved be in error on such an issue?

Conscious compromise of God's truth can be serious and deadly, but we also see from Scripture that in his mercy God may (and does) choose to accept less than perfect understanding and obedience, even of his own people. (Indeed, isn't the salvation and the perseverance of the saints dependent upon that fact?) There will be growth in understanding and holiness, but perfection must await our going to be with Jesus or His return to take us unto himself (see 1 John 3:2).

In the Old Testament, consider Asa in 1 Kings 15. He removed the idols from the land, but he allowed the high places to remain. The high places were clearly unacceptable. But the text states that Asa was loyal to the Lord his entire life. How could this be? Had he not seriously compromised?

What about the New Testament? Consider the Corinthians. Was the church at Corinth an exemplary church? Did they not have many doctrinal problems, e.g., concerning the Lord's Supper and the doctrine of the resurrection? (See 1 Cor. 11 and 1 Cor. 15.) Did even the apostles fully understand? Even though what they wrote was protected from error, did they not grow and mature in their own understanding and obedience? Wasn't it necessary at one point, for instance, for Paul to rebuke Peter for his inconsistency? (See Gal. 2.)

My point is not to defend the doctrinal aberrations of Rome. I do not believe such is possible. I think, however, that people generally follow their leaders. They learn from them; they consider their arguments rational and coherent.

For example, consider devotion to Mary. I read Jarislov Pellikan's Mary Through the Centuries and I cannot get past page 10 before I am wondering why the author is so blind to the fallacies of his arguments. However, if I were not being so critical and I were already predisposed to the position, then his arguments would perhaps seem irrefutable. So then, we should boldly, patiently, and compassionately discuss these matters with our loved ones, praying that the Holy Spirit will grant them more understanding.

Whatever we may judge in terms of the "actuality" or "probability" or "possibility" of a person's salvation at the end of life is, in the end, academic, for God is the one who can look at the heart and only he can truly judge. (He is the One, in fact, who has chosen his elect.) "It is appointed to man once to die, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27), but "Today is the day of salvation" (Heb. 3:13). We should work, therefore, the works of him who sent us while it is light and point our neighbors and loved ones to Christ.

For myself, I too was a Roman Catholic. In the past six months, I have attended the funeral of two uncles and one aunt whom I loved very much. I had opportunity at each funeral to speak a word of testimony regarding the Savior. I stood in the pulpit of the church in which I had served mass as a young boy and in my eulogies spoke of my faith in Christ.

Was it as detailed as I wish it could have been? No, but I am thankful for the opportunity God gave. Do I believe that my family members went to heaven? For one I have hope; for the others, I have little hope. Upon what is my hope based? It is always and only grounded in Christ and the Gospel.

We may define Christianity broadly by including as Christians all who confess the Apostles' Creed. We may define Christianity narrowly by including as Christians only those who confess our particular denominational creed. We need to exercise care, because, if we are too narrow, we may find ourselves excluding someone like Augustine. On the other hand, if we are too broad, we may find ourselves including many who should be excluded.

Personally, therefore, I do not judge. I have either greater or lesser hope. For example, I have greater hope for my Roman Catholic family members who ignorantly follow their leaders without thinking. Many times I find these to be at least open to discussion regarding the Gospel. However, I have lesser hope for people who are self-consciously Roman Catholic; that is, they understand the issues yet continue in the way of the Papacy.

I recommend that you read the book Come out from among Them by John Calvin. I found it very helpful and it addresses somewhat the question that you have raised.

I hope that my answer helps. You are free to write for clarification. May our Lord bless you.

[Quix]

Hmmmm . . . perhaps there’s an assumption that I’m

NOT being charitable.

And an assumption that I’m NOT being accurate.

Fascinating.

[Mad Dawg]

At some point in time you guys have to reconcile these two opposing positions in regard to your dogma because you come off looking pretty goofy otherwise...

I need some help here. This question has been discussed many times on FR over the years. References to what "outside the Catholic Church" means, references to passages in the Catechism, discussion of to how and to what extent "original intent" is determinative in papal declarations ... all these have been discussed over and over again.

Furthermore we have spoken about the informal use of language when talking about who is in and who is not in the Catholic Church. I must have said fifteen times that anyone baptized with water and a Trinitarian formula and the intent to Baptize is a member of the Catholic Church. Hee may not be a member "in full communion" but he's a member.

That being the case, I'm wondering why this is being brought up now.

[Mrs. Frogjerk]

I knew that your response would have vicious undertones( What does Mary care about me, twisting your words etc.) I shouldn't be surprised, that's the response I usually get from Protestants when discussing my beliefs.

I don't know why for the life of me we cannot communicate with each other(Catholics and Protestants in general) without getting nasty about it.

These are simply my beliefs and if you choose not to believe them than that is your choice.

For your information, one of my very good friends is a Baptist. And unlike what most of you think about us Catholics, I don't think that she is going to rot in Hell for her beliefs.

I actually went to a few of her Bible study sessions for awhile as she had invited me to. I have to say that I could relate to what was being said despite the fact that I didn't agree with some of what was said. The one thing that will always stick out in my mind is how some of the people in the group could not help but to bash the Church. They knew I was Catholic by the way. They would make snide little comments etc. She would apologize for it but I told her not to because I was really on her turf anyway.

What I just don't get is the absolute hatred that some Protestants have for us Catholics.(I don't know if that includes you). I went to a Bible study at my own church and I can honestly tell you that not one nasty comment was ever made about the Protestants. So I just don't get it. I swear, some of you just don't have it in you to be civil.

[Quix]

they are going to distinguish between the two

##########

Quite fittingly and logically, of course . . .

which the more fiercely rabid hereon work very hard to try and prevent us from doing.

LOL.

[Ransomed]

Anything Mary can do she can do because of the Grace of God. She can do nothing on her own. NOTHING. She is a very blessed creature, not divine. You get kicked out if you believe otherwise.

Freegards

[Iscool]

The relationship of that church to the organization with offices on Vatican hill in Rome is something to debate, but not the proposition that there is no salvation outside the universal church, the ekklesia katolika, founded by Christ.

But that's what we ARE debating...We have always agreed that we are all part of the 'universal' church...

That religion that sits on those 7 hills in Rome is NOT the head of that universal church...And THAT church in Rome that claims to follow Peter is the church whose leaders claim we must be members of THAT church to attain salvation...

And that idea is rejected by God...

[wheathead]

Give me a break! I am so sick of “my church is better than your church” crap.
You appear to have not matured past “my dad can beat your dad up” mentallity.
The world is coming apart at the seams and you’re stuck on stupid. Apparently, your “lantern” would be better seen if you could manage to pull it out of your behind.

nuff said.

[Campion]

I think that is when the RM jumps in and someone can get banned. You don't want Quix banned do you?

I want everyone on threads like this to work harder on treating people with "gentleness and respect" (1 Pt 3:15), which is what the Scriptures command us to do.

And I'm not only talking about Catholic vs. Protestant threads, either. And I'm not only talking about people other than myself.

I'm calling people, myself included, to a higher standard of behavior.

All of us who are Christians will have to answer to our Master for every word we post here. We all should keep that in mind.

And with that, my computer goes off. Have a good day.

[Quix]

I think that is when the RM jumps in and someone can get banned. You don't want Quix banned do you?

#####################

[the_conscience]

I’m trying to understand what proceeds what and you have given what seems to be contradictory statements. First you claimed effort preceedes grace but then qualified that by saying grace precedes effort.

So I’m thinking that maybe there is a matrix of graces such that maybe it would go like: grace—effort—grace.

[wmfights]

Gambit declined. I don’t think the Klan actually coined money, after all ...

I have no idea what you're referring to. The quote you posted I was guessing was the one used on the coins commemorating the killing of Christians at the St. Bartholomew massacre. If it was something else just be direct and say so.

[Iscool]

Iscool condemns Paul's position. Who'm I gonna trust?

Nope...I don't disagree with Paul...

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Verse is pretty simple...Paul preaches to others...Others who have their eye on him...

Paul watches what he does especially in public so he doesn't lose any credibility with those he's teaching...

Castaway doesn not mean loss of salvation...It's losing 'face' and being rejected as a preacher by those he's preaching to, thus, bringing the words of God to no effect...Nothing at all to do with losing salvation...

[wmfights]

Anything Mary can do she can do because of the Grace of God. She can do nothing on her own. NOTHING. She is a very blessed creature, not divine. You get kicked out if you believe otherwise.

Would believing Mary has the power to take people from purgatory to heaven be over the line?

Would believing Mary can cause prayers to get special attention be over the line?

Would believing Mary can listen to millions of prayers simultaneously and discern which are worthy of special attention be over the line?

Would believing Mary was born with out sin and never sinned be over the line?

Where does this line get drawn?

[Iscool]

We sneaky devious Catholics think that deeds have at least two aspects, that part which can be photographed and the disposition of the person doing the deed. The "object" of the deed, what the person doing it thinks he's doing and intends by it, is greatly determinative of what the deed actually is, If a person does not INTEND to pay divine honors, does not think the person in front of whose image he is to be divine, then I think it's not a stretch to say he is not paying divine honors.

Yeah, I remember as a kid, stealing watermelons out of the neighbor's watermelon patch...I wasn't stealing actually, I was just 'taking' it...

Sorry, but if your color blue is the same as the color red, it's likely your blue is actually red...But you can call it blue if you want...

[wmfights]

I want everyone on threads like this to work harder on treating people with "gentleness and respect" (1 Pt 3:15), which is what the Scriptures command us to do.

If that is really true the lexicon of the RCC has to be changed.

[Mad Dawg]

Clarification please: Was that meant as a refutation or merely as abuse? I think my confusion arises because your remark has no discernible connection with what I wrote. Do you really see no difference between a self-defense shooting and a murder?

[Mad Dawg]

The line is drawn, (My guess, okay?) whenever anyone says the things that Mary can do are intrinsic to her rather than gifts from God.

[wmfights]

Hey Brother, listened to a great message on Sunday. It was why Jesus choose to be born in a stable. A place where animals make a smelly mess. Jesus came to be "one of us" not an elite. Also, He came to us in a smelly, dirty garbage filled place just as he comes into our hearts which are really no different.

All this make believe around Mary only sidetracks us from how merciful our Savior is. Christianity is the only religion I know of where God humiliated Himself for us.

[Mrs. Frogjerk]

Thank you for at least being civil about your beliefs.

It’s a breath of fresh air to see that on these threads.

[Mad Dawg]

The word is αδοκιμος adokimos. The translation "Castaway" is interesting.

Check:
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=96

It seems MOSTLY to mean rejected or disqualified. I wonder if there is another instance of its being translated cast away. But the difference between "cast away" and "thrown out" is, well, not all that clear.

To be complete, somebody says it might not refer to Paul's salvation but only to his qualifications to be an apostle. Hmmm.