“Does temporal punishment exist? Do people suffer in this life? Yes or no?”
You are mixing two separate subjects. People suffer. Yes. Is it punishment for sin. For non-believers, yes. For believers, no. “ Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
Punishment is not a part of discipline. A horse who shies is not guilty of sin. No crime has been committed. There is no reason to punish her, since she is innocent. There may be less pleasant consequences for certain actions, but she isn’t guilty - she just doesn’t understand. She is a horse, for goodness sakes! And we are much lower to God than a horse is to us, in terms of understanding.
When your church talks about transferring merit to another to cancel out temporal punishment, it is using an accounting system of good and evil. Good deeds are a positive deposit. Bad deeds must be covered by the good deeds, so they are like a withdrawal.
But Jesus taught that God doesn’t do an accounting system. To break one law is to break all. To obey a law does no good, unless you are born again. If you are born again, you do not fall under condemnation any more.
“Does God treat us more like children or horses?”
More like horses, although what we do with children doesn’t remove any guilt from sin for them. Discipline is not about guilt. I discipline a child (had 3, now frequently care for a granddaughter) who doesn’t know they are doing wrong. Someone who doesn’t know they are doing wrong isn’t guilty of anything. They haven’t ‘sinned’ against me. However, their behavior may still be unacceptable, and require discipline to teach them it is wrong.
A few years ago, I might have written some of the same stuff you are writing now, from a Protestant perspective. The last few years of trying to train dogs and horses has led me to do a lot of reading and thinking about discipline vs. punishment. And to a certain extent, we are talking past each other.
Punishment CAN be used to mean the unpleasant results that teach a child, dog or horse that obeying a rule is better. It can also mean the penalty for sin or crime. Used in the first sense, God does punish his children and we do punish ours and I do punish my horses & dogs.
However, if it is punishment to requite guilt, then it doesn’t need to be timely or to teach better behavior. A man who steals or kills will be punished when caught. If it takes 40 years, the guilt remains and so will the punishment.
Discipline uses ‘punishment’ differently, since it is meant to teach. If it isn’t done immediately, it doesn’t happen. I can’t teach someone a year later.
When God punishes a child of His, He does it to teach, not to cancel out our guilt. Our guilt for sin was paid in full at Calvary. It was once for all, and perfected us forever - so far as guilt goes.
I find the difference important for horses, dogs - AND my youngest daughter and granddaughter. Punishment for a crime focuses me on how to make them unhappy, and that they are ‘bad’. Discipline, using ‘pressure’, as a lot of trainers now put it, focuses me on teaching. It focuses me on what they CAN BE, rather than making me think they are bad. The difference is huge in my attitude and the results I see.
I only wish I had tried teaching horses as a young man. Perhaps I would have done a better job of raising my oldest kids, although they have proven to be fairly forgiving of my faults as a father. In particular, I find our Arabian mare Mia is teaching me more about being a father and man than I am teaching her about being ridden past wind chimes and strange garbage cans.
You write - without animosity, I’m sure, “Your horse is an irrational beast. There’s no point to punishing something that was made to be shod and ridden, or eaten and made into glue. It’s a horse. They don’t think. They can’t sin.”
If you could meet Mia (and to a lesser extent, Trooper and Lilly), you would find you are wrong. Mia is teaching me a lot, and my family has noticed the difference!
You don't speak for all believers, and neither does your own personal interpretation of Scripture speak for Scripture.
And people are not horses.
You wrote:
“You are mixing two separate subjects. People suffer. Yes. Is it punishment for sin. For non-believers, yes. For believers, no. “ Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.””
All the world’s suffering directly or indirectly comes as a result of sin. Romans 8:20-22.
“Punishment is not a part of discipline. A horse who shies is not guilty of sin.”
Punishment is a part of discipline. Ask any parent. Pssst! God. is. our. Father.
“When your church talks about transferring merit to another to cancel out temporal punishment, it is using an accounting system of good and evil.”
No. It is relying on God’s mercy. God works in mysterious ways. 1 Cor. 7:14.
“Good deeds are a positive deposit. Bad deeds must be covered by the good deeds, so they are like a withdrawal.”
Who teaches that? Not the Catholic Church. I suggest, if you are determined to oppose the truth, you at least know what it is first.
“But Jesus taught that God doesn’t do an accounting system. To break one law is to break all. To obey a law does no good, unless you are born again. If you are born again, you do not fall under condemnation any more.”
And yet - according to God Himself - we show our love for Him by keeping His commandments.
“More like horses, although what we do with children doesn’t remove any guilt from sin for them.”
More like children. We become God’s adopted children, not his wagon team. Christ willingly became a man, not a horse.
“Discipline is not about guilt. I discipline a child (had 3, now frequently care for a granddaughter) who doesn’t know they are doing wrong. Someone who doesn’t know they are doing wrong isn’t guilty of anything. They haven’t ‘sinned’ against me. However, their behavior may still be unacceptable, and require discipline to teach them it is wrong.”
God punished Adam and Eve. God punished Israel...and that’s how He disciplined her.
“A few years ago, I might have written some of the same stuff you are writing now, from a Protestant perspective. The last few years of trying to train dogs and horses has led me to do a lot of reading and thinking about discipline vs. punishment. And to a certain extent, we are talking past each other.”
Yes, we are talking past one another. I am talking about God and man. You are talking about horses and dogs. You are using barnyard animals as your prism to see God and His teachings with.
“Punishment CAN be used to mean the unpleasant results that teach a child, dog or horse that obeying a rule is better. It can also mean the penalty for sin or crime. Used in the first sense, God does punish his children and we do punish ours and I do punish my horses & dogs.”
Horses and dogs. God and people. All the same to you?
“However, if it is punishment to requite guilt, then it doesn’t need to be timely or to teach better behavior. A man who steals or kills will be punished when caught. If it takes 40 years, the guilt remains and so will the punishment.”
(sigh)
“Discipline uses ‘punishment’ differently, since it is meant to teach. If it isn’t done immediately, it doesn’t happen. I can’t teach someone a year later.”
I can. I have. God’s lessons sometimes took decades to unfold with Israel.
“When God punishes a child of His, He does it to teach, not to cancel out our guilt.”
Why do you keep making up this caricature and passing it off as if that is Catholic teaching? You have done this two or three times. Can’t you debate what we actually believe? Wouldn’t that be a more honest debate.
“Our guilt for sin was paid in full at Calvary. It was once for all, and perfected us forever - so far as guilt goes.”
No, it did not perfect us forever in one moment. No one you encounter is perfected. They still sin. If they were perfected, they would sin.
“I find the difference important for horses, dogs - AND my youngest daughter and granddaughter. Punishment for a crime focuses me on how to make them unhappy, and that they are ‘bad’. Discipline, using ‘pressure’, as a lot of trainers now put it, focuses me on teaching. It focuses me on what they CAN BE, rather than making me think they are bad. The difference is huge in my attitude and the results I see.”
God punishes us. To deny that punishment exists by playing word games with “pressure” is nonsense. To assume we are now perfect - when we clearly are not - is also nonsense.
“I only wish I had tried teaching horses as a young man. Perhaps I would have done a better job of raising my oldest kids, although they have proven to be fairly forgiving of my faults as a father. In particular, I find our Arabian mare Mia is teaching me more about being a father and man than I am teaching her about being ridden past wind chimes and strange garbage cans.”
Horses. Dogs. God became man for none of them. God died for none of them. God will save none of them.
“You write - without animosity, I’m sure, “Your horse is an irrational beast. There’s no point to punishing something that was made to be shod and ridden, or eaten and made into glue. It’s a horse. They don’t think. They can’t sin.””
Exactly. Horses are for our use. We can ride them. We can eat them if need be. We can make them into glue. They’re just horses. They have no role to play in God’s plan of salvation and have no rational soul.
“If you could meet Mia (and to a lesser extent, Trooper and Lilly), you would find you are wrong.”
No. I would not find I am wrong. I might think Mia is a beautiful and majestic animal. She would still be an irrational beast. With the right sauce she might taste good too. She might make a fine adhesive too. She’s a horse. No matter how much someone loves an animal, it’s still just an animal. Pets are wonderful and I’ve had many, but they’re just animals. They could all do some impressive things, but none of them were rational creatures.
“Mia is teaching me a lot, and my family has noticed the difference!”
Lovely. Mia may be teaching you all sorts of circus tricks, but she isn’t teaching you anything about orthodox theology or scripture. My teacher is God and His Church. I would prefer Christ and His Church to a horse anyday.