You wrote:
“You are mixing two separate subjects. People suffer. Yes. Is it punishment for sin. For non-believers, yes. For believers, no. “ Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.””
All the world’s suffering directly or indirectly comes as a result of sin. Romans 8:20-22.
“Punishment is not a part of discipline. A horse who shies is not guilty of sin.”
Punishment is a part of discipline. Ask any parent. Pssst! God. is. our. Father.
“When your church talks about transferring merit to another to cancel out temporal punishment, it is using an accounting system of good and evil.”
No. It is relying on God’s mercy. God works in mysterious ways. 1 Cor. 7:14.
“Good deeds are a positive deposit. Bad deeds must be covered by the good deeds, so they are like a withdrawal.”
Who teaches that? Not the Catholic Church. I suggest, if you are determined to oppose the truth, you at least know what it is first.
“But Jesus taught that God doesn’t do an accounting system. To break one law is to break all. To obey a law does no good, unless you are born again. If you are born again, you do not fall under condemnation any more.”
And yet - according to God Himself - we show our love for Him by keeping His commandments.
“More like horses, although what we do with children doesn’t remove any guilt from sin for them.”
More like children. We become God’s adopted children, not his wagon team. Christ willingly became a man, not a horse.
“Discipline is not about guilt. I discipline a child (had 3, now frequently care for a granddaughter) who doesn’t know they are doing wrong. Someone who doesn’t know they are doing wrong isn’t guilty of anything. They haven’t ‘sinned’ against me. However, their behavior may still be unacceptable, and require discipline to teach them it is wrong.”
God punished Adam and Eve. God punished Israel...and that’s how He disciplined her.
“A few years ago, I might have written some of the same stuff you are writing now, from a Protestant perspective. The last few years of trying to train dogs and horses has led me to do a lot of reading and thinking about discipline vs. punishment. And to a certain extent, we are talking past each other.”
Yes, we are talking past one another. I am talking about God and man. You are talking about horses and dogs. You are using barnyard animals as your prism to see God and His teachings with.
“Punishment CAN be used to mean the unpleasant results that teach a child, dog or horse that obeying a rule is better. It can also mean the penalty for sin or crime. Used in the first sense, God does punish his children and we do punish ours and I do punish my horses & dogs.”
Horses and dogs. God and people. All the same to you?
“However, if it is punishment to requite guilt, then it doesn’t need to be timely or to teach better behavior. A man who steals or kills will be punished when caught. If it takes 40 years, the guilt remains and so will the punishment.”
(sigh)
“Discipline uses ‘punishment’ differently, since it is meant to teach. If it isn’t done immediately, it doesn’t happen. I can’t teach someone a year later.”
I can. I have. God’s lessons sometimes took decades to unfold with Israel.
“When God punishes a child of His, He does it to teach, not to cancel out our guilt.”
Why do you keep making up this caricature and passing it off as if that is Catholic teaching? You have done this two or three times. Can’t you debate what we actually believe? Wouldn’t that be a more honest debate.
“Our guilt for sin was paid in full at Calvary. It was once for all, and perfected us forever - so far as guilt goes.”
No, it did not perfect us forever in one moment. No one you encounter is perfected. They still sin. If they were perfected, they would sin.
“I find the difference important for horses, dogs - AND my youngest daughter and granddaughter. Punishment for a crime focuses me on how to make them unhappy, and that they are ‘bad’. Discipline, using ‘pressure’, as a lot of trainers now put it, focuses me on teaching. It focuses me on what they CAN BE, rather than making me think they are bad. The difference is huge in my attitude and the results I see.”
God punishes us. To deny that punishment exists by playing word games with “pressure” is nonsense. To assume we are now perfect - when we clearly are not - is also nonsense.
“I only wish I had tried teaching horses as a young man. Perhaps I would have done a better job of raising my oldest kids, although they have proven to be fairly forgiving of my faults as a father. In particular, I find our Arabian mare Mia is teaching me more about being a father and man than I am teaching her about being ridden past wind chimes and strange garbage cans.”
Horses. Dogs. God became man for none of them. God died for none of them. God will save none of them.
“You write - without animosity, I’m sure, “Your horse is an irrational beast. There’s no point to punishing something that was made to be shod and ridden, or eaten and made into glue. It’s a horse. They don’t think. They can’t sin.””
Exactly. Horses are for our use. We can ride them. We can eat them if need be. We can make them into glue. They’re just horses. They have no role to play in God’s plan of salvation and have no rational soul.
“If you could meet Mia (and to a lesser extent, Trooper and Lilly), you would find you are wrong.”
No. I would not find I am wrong. I might think Mia is a beautiful and majestic animal. She would still be an irrational beast. With the right sauce she might taste good too. She might make a fine adhesive too. She’s a horse. No matter how much someone loves an animal, it’s still just an animal. Pets are wonderful and I’ve had many, but they’re just animals. They could all do some impressive things, but none of them were rational creatures.
“Mia is teaching me a lot, and my family has noticed the difference!”
Lovely. Mia may be teaching you all sorts of circus tricks, but she isn’t teaching you anything about orthodox theology or scripture. My teacher is God and His Church. I would prefer Christ and His Church to a horse anyday.
“All the world’s suffering directly or indirectly comes as a result of sin. Romans 8:20-22.”
Yes. And now we have been forgiven those sins, if we have repented and believed.
“No, it did not perfect us forever in one moment. No one you encounter is perfected.”
God says you are wrong. “But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.”
“Punishment is a part of discipline. Ask any parent...To deny that punishment exists by playing word games with “pressure” is nonsense.”
I’m parent and grandparent. If you are punishing your kids instead of disciplining them, you are making an error. There is a difference, and it is sad that you don’t see it.
“No. I would not find I am wrong. I might think Mia is a beautiful and majestic animal. She would still be an irrational beast. With the right sauce she might taste good too. She might make a fine adhesive too. She’s a horse. No matter how much someone loves an animal, it’s still just an animal. Pets are wonderful and I’ve had many, but they’re just animals. They could all do some impressive things, but none of them were rational creatures.”
Once again, I pity someone so blind. Only a total fool would think animals like horses and dogs are irrational beasts.
“Mia may be teaching you all sorts of circus tricks, but she isn’t teaching you anything about orthodox theology or scripture. My teacher is God and His Church. I would prefer Christ and His Church to a horse anyday.”
More pity for you. Your teacher may be the Catholic Church, but it isn’t God. You wouldn’t recognize His voice. You haven’t learned to listen.
I fully understand your analogy. We ARE like horses or any other animal when it come to understanding God at his level.
James Dobson gave an example one time that when his son was 2 or 3 years old, he had a very bad ear infection. Mrs. Dobson had taken him to the doctor and he tried to apply a treatment to his ear. It was so painful that the boy screamed, cried and squirmed so hard, the doctor could not do the procedure. He was getting aggravated at the mom for not keeping the child still and she was trying her hardest. She finally had to call Dr. Dobson to come over and help.
He said when he got there, he held his son in his arms and laid him on the table. The child started the screaming and squirming again as soon as the pediatrician came near, but Dobson held him down firmly as the doctor continued to work. He said in the midst of everything he was able to see his son’s face in a mirror and the look he was giving him broke his heart. His son seemed to be thinking, “I thought you loved me. How could you let this mean man do this to me? Why are you letting him hurt me?”
He said his heart was broken because there was no way to explain to such a small child that this was for his good, that the pain would be healed and that he really did love him and would give his life for him.
He said it made him think about how our heavenly Father allows pain and sufferring in our lives and it grieves him that we cannot see past the pain to glorious purpose of his plans.
God has permitted a lot of sufferring in my life and at first I was angry and confused. As time went by after much prayer for healing, I came to the point in my understanding that if this was God’s will for me, he would use it for his glory. Through the years, I have seen how he has done exactly that.
“Punishment” means getting even, revenge, paying the penalty for the crime. Jesus Christ bore all our punishment for sins on the cross. He paid the penalty in full. Discipline, on the other hand, is completely different. Do you punish children when they misbehave or do you discipline them? I hope it’s the latter because no loving parent “gets even with” their child. They instead lead and guide the child to right behavior. Discipline is not always pleasant but “it yields the peaceable fruits of righteousness.”
Hebrews 12:6-20 (King James Version)
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.