Posted on 11/21/2009 4:02:44 PM PST by NYer
No, Jesus didn't say that.
You typed "Jesus said" followed by a bunch of your own personal interpretation of Scripture.
Such is your claim.
“I am not a Catholic, anymore, but a born-again, redeemed, sanctified child of God and a member of the universal (small “c” - catholic) body/church of Jesus Christ. Praise be to the Lord who is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him.”
I appreciate your testimony of knowing Christ.
To it I will add my personal thankfulness to the Roman
Catholic Church, which laid an important foundation in
my life of intellectual belief in Theism, sin, heaven
and hell, and belief in Jesus Christ. Later, I came to
understand the meaning of faith, of grace, of salvation
and the holiness and truth of God’s Word.
best,
ampu
Hey, Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and the life, that no one gets to the Father but through Him. I take Jesus at His Word; good intentions, following your conscience without knowing Jesus won't get you to God.
No. Christ is not cruel. Again, do you believe children go to hell? How about aborted babies? They don’t believe in Christ, right? So, accrording to you they must AUTOMATICALLY go to hell, right?
My feelings about cruelty is irrelevant; Christ said He is the only way. If He chooses to save aborted babies that is His choice, but He certainly didn't make it clear. And there isn't a firm Biblical basis for the salvation of the unborn.
We need to be very careful to not place our sense of morality or right and wrong on top of Christ, to limit His justice and mercy based upon our desires or wants.
You wrote:
“Hey, Jesus said He is the way, the truth, and the life, that no one gets to the Father but through Him.”
And I believe Him too.
“I take Jesus at His Word; good intentions, following your conscience without knowing Jesus won’t get you to God.”
Okay, so you believe all babies who die burn in hell forever, right?
“My feelings about cruelty is irrelevant; Christ said He is the only way. If He chooses to save aborted babies that is His choice, but He certainly didn’t make it clear.”
So, again, you believe all dead babies burn in hell forever, right?
“And there isn’t a firm Biblical basis for the salvation of the unborn.”
So, again, you believe all dead babies burn in hell forever, right?
“We need to be very careful to not place our sense of morality or right and wrong on top of Christ, to limit His justice and mercy based upon our desires or wants.”
It has nothing to do with my desires or wants. Just answer the question you keep NOT answering: You believe all dead babies burn in hell forever, right?
You might well be dealing with a Calvinist...in which case, you would be dealing with someone who believes God sent the mass-abortionists to profit over the killing of babies.
Sure, see Catechism 847, which I quoted in post 53, just a few up above your post.
My personal belief is that they end up in Sheol, like the Jews before Jesus came. But my belief and your belief is irrelevant; there is only Jesus' words, and the Scripture.
Can you point to the Scripture where it says the unborn are saved?
“You might well be dealing with a Calvinist...in which case, you would be dealing with someone who believes God sent the mass-abortionists to profit over the killing of babies.”
Or you could believe that God is not in control.
Oh, that is why I missed it.
“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation”
You misapplied it. Here is your original post:
“Your own Catechism says you do not even need to know the words of Christ to be saved; why should you consider him “led astray”, or wait for him to “come back”? According to your own infallible teachings (the Catechism), Christ and His words are not needed for salvation. Thus neither is the Church.”
Never hearing the Gospel is different than hearing and then twisting. Sort of like your post. A complete distortion.
I obviously wasn’t clear. The Church existed before the New Testament Bible. I consider the Bible to include the OT and the NT as most Christians do.
I’m sorry, in my original post where did I twist the Catechism? I stated - by your own quote:
“Your own Catechism says you do not even need to know the words of Christ to be saved”.
That is what 847 says, does it not? And is not by logical extension - taking the statement that you do not need the words of Christ, knowledge of Christ to be saved - that the Church is not needed for salvation?
No, you can’t buy your way to Heaven, but almost all the parables were about the importance of “works” or acts in the ultimate judgment of a man’s worthiness. The good Samaritan, the fig tree, the faithful servant, the servants who didn’t invest wisely, the widow’s mite, Lazarus and the rich man— all told by Christ Himself to illustrate that it wasn’t faith that was the proof of a good man in God’s eyes; it was our actions and the way we treat others.
Now add in all the statements Christ made about the “faith filled” Pharisees and you begin to see the difference between faith alone and faith through works. The best example of all is the rich man who lived a devout life and asked Christ what he needed to do to be saved. Christ told him he was a very good man and now he must leave everything and follow Him. The man had lived a good, faith-full life, but it wasn’t enough. Christ required the ACT of leaving everything and following.
It is obvious that if you have faith— real faith— you can’t just sit and believe; it is clearly not enough in Christ’s mind. You MUST act. With true faith, you would be on fire and would not be able to sit still. You could not hide your light under a bushel. The Catholic understanding of faith through works is the correct one. It is also the logical one if one simply reads Scripture with an open mind.
Is a quadraplegic with faith prohibited from entering Heaven?
Faith in Jesus is the only way to the Father; those are His words. Works may be an outward sign of your internal faith, and we believe that, yes, a man with faith WILL manifest some sort of works. But it is the faith that saves him, and the faith that drives the works, not the other way around.
You wrote:
“My personal belief is that they end up in Sheol, like the Jews before Jesus came.”
Jesus went to those people. You never read 1 Peter 3:19?
“But my belief and your belief is irrelevant;”
Not according to Christ, you or me. Christ said it matter. You have said it as well. After all you wrote, ““I take Jesus at His Word; good intentions, following your conscience without knowing Jesus won’t get you to God.” Now you’re saying it doesn’t matter?
Is that the sort of logical consistency we can expect from Protestants?
“...there is only Jesus’ words, and the Scripture.”
But neither Jesus nor scripture tell us anything about your Sheol theory.
“Can you point to the Scripture where it says the unborn are saved?”
No. Can you point to one where they are automatically damned just because they were not chronologically old enough to believe in anything?
You wrote:
“You might well be dealing with a Calvinist...in which case, you would be dealing with someone who believes God sent the mass-abortionists to profit over the killing of babies.”
Oy vey!
You wrote:
“Never hearing the Gospel is different than hearing and then twisting. Sort of like your post. A complete distortion.”
NAILED IT!
Very well said. Thanks so much.
I specifically stated it was my personal belief, for there aren’t any Scriptures that say otherwise. Can you point to the Scriptures that say the unborn will be saved?
“Is a quadraplegic with faith prohibited from entering Heaven?”
That question right there made me think of this:
http://comedians.comedycentral.com/lewis-black/videos/lewis-black-—college-horse
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