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To: topcat54
If you can prove such from the Word of God, I’d be interested in the case you can make.

It has certainly been a while since I have been called upon to defend this as such, but I can hardly see how it can be avoided in the great prophets, especially Isaiah 40 onward, Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Jeremiah - And the minor prophets, Hosea especially, All relate the restoration of Israel in the last days, and speak specifically of the House of Joseph/Ephraim and the House of Judah (Note, the great houses, not the tribes) as being participatory in battles in the last days.

Furthermore, beside that major theme, the condition of Judah being blinded to Christ's coming by God is carried forward into the New Testament, and the argument can be made in the Prophecy that once the gospel is rejected by Judah it will be carried forward by Ephraim to the gentiles...

Further yet, It is inescapable that the two, Ephraim and Judah (the two Houses) will be made one in the hand of Messiah (Ez 37), and that seems to happen before the final battle (it seems to me that the Battle of Magog would be an opportune time) - As His two witnesses, both are deficient until that time. I thoroughly expect our Hebrew friends to teach us as much as we will teach them. The truth, it seems lies in BOTH.

Isaiah 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

Old Testament

Leviticus 26:44-45 Restoration of Israel is unconditional.
Isaiah 11:11 Second restoration of the Jews.
Isaiah 26;20-27:1 Hiding the children of Israel, Satan's judgment.
Isaiah 27:12-13 The final regathering of Israel.
Jeremiah:30:4-8 The time of Jacobs troubles and the future restoration.
Jeremiah 30:18-24 Restoration of Jacob will take place in the latter days.
Jeremiah 31:35-37 The permanent nation of Israel.
Jeremiah 33:24-26 Unconditional covenant with Jacob's descendants.
Ezekiel 16:60-63 Unconditional everlasting covenant with Israel.
Ezekiel 37:1-28 Unconditional future Restoration of Israel, Armageddon in Ezekiel 38.
Hosea 11:9-10 Restoration of Israel from the West.
Joel 3:1-3 Restoration of Judah followed by Armageddon(?).
Amos 9:11 -15 Israel restored to the land.
Zechariah 8:7-8 Post-exile unconditional restoration of the Jews to Jerusalem and the land.
Zechariah 10 & 12 Future restoration of the Jews.
Zechariah 14 Armageddon(?) with the Jews in Jerusalem.

New Testament

Luke 21:24 Dispersion, the time of the Gentiles, and an END to the time of the Gentiles.
Romans 11:11 The Jews have not fallen.
Romans 11:17 Only some of the branches were broken off.
Romans 11:17 The wild olive (Ephraim, church) was grafted in among Judah(olive tree).
Romans 11:28 Jews are still elect.
Romans 11:29 Gods callings (of the Jews) is irrevocable.
Revelation 7:4-9 Speaks of the 12 tribes of Israel
Revelation 12:1-6 Speaks of Israel in the Christian era.
Revelation 15:3 Two songs, one for the Jews, and one for the Church.

While I have given you a few verses to chew on, I really hate to do so. I would rather discuss this in broad themes, as one can be accused of taking verses out of context.

509 posted on 09/23/2009 1:35:26 AM PDT by roamer_1 (It takes a (Kenyan) village to raise an idiot.)
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To: roamer_1

Excellent points.

Though, most likely, those verses are not in their RUBBER BIBLES.

OR

Their RUBBER DICTIONARIES will somehow render those verses moot and mute on the topic.

OR

Their RUBBER HISTORIES will insist virtually all such has already transpired centuries ago—most likely about 70AD.

OR

Their RUBBER LOGIC texts and habits will mangle it all in such a convoluted irrational mess that Alice’s School of Wonderland Rubber Replacementarian-A-Mil-Post-Mil-Preterist Theology begins to overtly look more and more like the Gordion knot of stinking snake worms that it’s always been.

OR

The most substantive attack will be a personal attack or a very thinly veiled personal attack utterly devoid of any remotely rational or remotely UNRUBBERIZED Biblical response.


517 posted on 09/23/2009 5:34:53 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: roamer_1
It has certainly been a while since I have been called upon to defend this as such, but I can hardly see how it can be avoided in the great prophets,

Perhaps that is due to your preconceptions on the topic, rather than the text itself.

Revelation 15:3 Two songs, one for the Jews, and one for the Church.

One of the frustrations here is that it is impossible to critique this style of presentation because the unstated assumptions and presuppositions that leads one to interpret (I use that phrase loosly in this case) the passages in the way you suggest. After all, you have not actually quoted the passage and done a word by word or phrase by phrase walk through in order to come to your conclusion. You have moved from the given to the conclusions without doing any real work. It’s as if the conclusion is so obvious that no real work is necessary to prove the conclusion. While the conclusions may be obvious to the adherents to your system, they are not so obvious to everyone else.

For example, take the passage above, Rev. 15:3 and explain how you come to your conclusion. This will demonstrate to all what presuppositions we must adopt in order to arrive at your conclusions.

546 posted on 09/23/2009 4:53:30 PM PDT by topcat54 ("If Israel is 'God's prophetic clock,' then dispensationalists do not know how to tell time.")
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