Finding Gog

Rapturealert.com ^ | 09-12-09 | Jack Kelley

[GiovannaNicoletta]

(This is an update of a study I first posted in Nov. 2003)

Those who labor to understand the nuances of the battle described in Ezekiel 38-39 quickly identify two major puzzles. One is the timing of the battle and the other is the identity of Gog, from Magog. Suffice it to say here that almost no scholar, certainly none I’m aware of, believes the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has already taken place. Some believe it will occur just before the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, while others believe Ezekiel is actually describing the Battle of Armageddon, which would put it at the end of the Great Tribulation. But all place it sometime in our future.

In my opinion, there are several reasons why Ezekiel 38 can’t be part of the Armageddon scenario. First, only some nations are involved in Ezekiel 38. For example, Saudi Arabia and Western Europe are said to be on the sidelines observing and others you would expect to see, like Egypt and Jordan, are not mentioned at all, although both appear later on. But Zechariah 12:3 says that in preparation for the Battle of Armageddon all the nations of the Earth will come against Jerusalem.

Second, how is Israel going to burn the left over weapons for 7 years as Ezekiel 39:9 indicates unless there are 7 years left in which to burn them? Rev. 21:24. says the nations will walk by the light of the New Jerusalem in the Millennium, so they won’t need fuel for energy then. And then you have Ezekiel 38:11 telling us that Israel will be a peaceful and unsuspecting people when the Moslem coalition strikes. Could that be possible near the end of the Great Tribulation when all the nations are gathering to attack? I don’t think so.

But most importantly, Daniel’s 70th week can’t start until Israel is back in covenant with God and the battle of Ezekiel 38 is what causes the covenant to be re-instated. (Ezek. 39:22) Armageddon comes at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, not the beginning.

As for Gog and Magog, the first thing to note is that while Magog is listed in Genesis 10, Gog is not. The list of 70 names in Genesis 10 is often called the Table of Nations because each of the men named there was the original ancestor of an ethnic group that grew to become a nation of people. For instance, Magog was the 2nd son of Japeth, one of Noah’s three sons, and bore the children who in time became known to the ancient world as the Scythians. They lived in central Asia and are believed to be the forefathers of today’s Russians. Many historical references support this view. For example, Josephus Flavius wrote “Magog founded the Magogians, thus named after him, but who were by the Greeks called Scythians.” And in some ancient Arabic documents, the Great Wall of China is called the Ramparts of Gog and Magog. It was built to keep the Scythians out of China.

So while the Russian people of today are likely descended from Magog, there is no such biological connection for Gog to either Magog or any other ethnic group. There is an unrelated mention of a man named Gog, a grandson of Reuben, in 1 Chronicles 5:4 but there doesn’t seem to be any connection between him and the land of Magog either. Clearly, while Magog refers to the millions of his descendants in today’s Russia, Gog remains a single individual.

Some say he’s a king or leader, and in a real sense I think that’s true but I don’t believe he’s of the human variety. The time spanned by his three appearances in scripture make that impossible.

The first one is in the first verse of Amos 7, but you have to be reading Amos from the Septuigent translation to see it. There, Gog is identified as a king, but of a swarm of locusts. To further shroud him in mystery Proverbs 30:27 states that locusts have no king, and observers of locust swarms agree that no obvious leader directs them, as a queen would direct a hive of bees for example. The swarm of locusts led by Gog in Amos 7:1-2 was symbolic of a judgment that was to come upon the Northern Kingdom, but the Lord relented because of Amos’ intercession.

(This hint also lends insight to another appearance of locusts, by the way. I’m referring to the one in Revelation 9, where a swarm of locusts comes out of the Abyss to afflict those on Earth who lack the seal of God on their foreheads. These locusts have a king named Abaddon in the Hebrew or Appolyon in the Greek. Here again, the Proverbs passage would indicate that these locusts are of supernatural origin like the ones in Amos 7, not ordinary locusts.)

The next time Gog’s mentioned is in Ezekiel 38:1, where he is called by name as the leader of a coalition of what are now primarily Moslem nations attacking Israel. His final mention comes from the Book of Revelation where he again leads the people from Magog against the Lord’s army at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:8).

Even if you’re among those who place the battle of Ezekiel 38 at the end of the Great Tribulation, the span of time between Gog’s last two biblical appearances is at least 1000 years, and while I believe that some born in that era will have long life spans, there isn’t any indication that natural humans born before the Millennium begins will live to see its end. This is especially true of God’s enemies, since all surviving unbelievers are removed from Earth at the beginning of our Lord’s reign.

So I’ve come to the conclusion that Gog is a supernatural figure. The Bible clearly states that behind the human seats of government stand supernatural figures manipulating the thoughts and actions of the world’s leaders. These figures are in Satan’s employ, helping in his effort to wrest ownership of Planet Earth from its Creator. Gog is at least the supernatural figure behind the throne of Russia, and perhaps is even Satan’s counterpart to the Archangel Michael, who commands the Lord’s armies.

In Daniel 10:13 Michael is identified as one of the Lord’s chief princes who in 536 BC came to Daniel’s aid in a supernatural struggle with the Prince of Persia, a nation barely emerging on the world scene having conquered Babylon just three years earlier. At its conclusion Michael told Daniel that he’d soon be battling the Prince of Greece, a nation that didn’t even exist at the time. In Daniel 12:1 we’re told he’ll protect Israel at the end of the age. And in Rev 12:7 he’s seen leading the angelic host in a great battle in heaven when Satan is defeated there and cast down to Earth at the outset of the Great Tribulation. Michael is clearly a supernatural warrior leaping across the pages of history in defense of the Lord’s interests. It makes sense that Satan would have a military commander leading his forces as well, since everything he does seems to mirror the actions of his Creator. With his multiple mentions in Scripture and the long span of time between appearances, Gog could easily be this commander.

Only time will tell if this view is correct. But one of the great advantages of living in our day is that we won’t have long to wait till we find out. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 09-12-09

[Quix]

INDEED.

And wise Biblical scholars of the DISPENSATIONAL variety accurately assessed 100 years and more ago—when Russia was hardly able to hobble to it’s own meager food stores . . . that it would rise as a world power and attack Israel.

[Quix]

I think Gog is not a supernatural figure. Of Gog or Magog, one may be a ruler, but I think it’s a human ruler.

Just an opinion, however.

[topcat54]

And wise Biblical scholars of the DISPENSATIONAL variety accurately assessed 100 years and more ago—when Russia was hardly able to hobble to it’s own meager food stores

You mean when they were actually still using horses and such? It only goes to prove that the error of dispensationalism is old and deep. Besides, these same dispensationalist “scholars” said that the antichrist was, among others, Mussolini (by using the same faulty techniques as their modern conterparts).

wise Biblical scholars of the DISPENSATIONAL variety

Now there's an oxymoron.

[Quix]

I didn't
EXPECT
the
REPLACEMENTARIAN
assertions
to be
THAT
silly and hilarious!
However,
the off-the-wall humor
does bring a certain
welcome flavor to these threads.
It's a cute contrast to
the truth of
UNRubberized
BIBLICAL TRUTH.

It’s obvious, when you read and understand the Bible, that phrases like “from the north … remote parts of the earth” are not meant to be interpreted using a modern geography book,

.

I'm sure it's a real KNEE SLAPPER in Heaven, too . . .

to read that Preterists, a-mils, post-mils, run-of-the-mil, REPLACEMENTARIANS et a.

can't wrap their perspectives and constructions on reality around the idea that

ALL KNOWING
TIMELESS
ALL MIGHTY
EVERLASTING
FATHER GOD

WOULDN'T/COULDN'T [according to the REPLACMENTARIAN et al silly notion above] POSSIBLY KNOW

that modern geography books would

TRUMP 100% TRUE
KNOW-END-FROM-BEGINNING
SCRIPTURE!

Imagine that. Almighty God tripped up by a modern geography book. I'm sure Heaven is consulting with OThuga and other globalists to figure out a fancy rationalization around that this very moment. /sar

[Quix]

Not the least bit odd.

God expects some of His truths to be self-evident and some to be dug out by prayerful study.

[Quix]

More unmitigated balderdash.

LOL.

[Quix]

Actually, IIRC, Russia still maintains the largest mounted calvary in the world.

= = =

I won’t be able to note all the REPLACEMENTARIAN silliness for a while.

I need to finish some grading and get off to the univ.

[Iscool]

Why in the world would anyone in their right mind care what "Jack Kelley" (who?) or Tim LaHaye think about anything??

There's a far more intriguing question waiting in the wings but if I ask it, you'd likely call me a Catholic basher or hater...

[topcat54]

I'm sure it's a real KNEE SLAPPER in Heaven, too . . .

You're right on cue, old Quixie.

[Quix]

I earnestly try to be! LOL.

It’s easier with REPLACEMENTARIANS et al filling their role so outrageously.

[topcat54]

Actually, IIRC, Russia still maintains the largest mounted calvary [sic] in the world.

It’s easy to verify facts. There is no modern Russian cavalry.

The Soviet Army retained horse cavalry divisions until 1955, and even at the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, there was an independent horse mounted cavalry squadron in Kyrgyzstan. ( Wikipedia)

Even if it were Russian (which it is not), a squadron is hardly sufficient to mount a campaign against an enemy.

So, you have been suckered into this “Russia is going to attack Israel on horseback” fantasy?

[topcat54]

Here’s another little bit of information that should throw the literalist futurists for a loop.

World horse population estimated at 58 million

“The figures for Europe show the Russian Federation as having the most horses, at 1,319,358, … Other than the Russian Federation, countries with horse population totals over one million included: China (7,402,450); …”

In the fantasy world of literalist futurism, future Israel will be invaded by an army from the east consisting of 200 million men on horseback.

Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them. (Rev. 9:16)

But according to statistics, the entire world population of horses is only one fourth of that needed number, and many of those 58 million horses are not suitable for use in war. (Although that won’t much matter against a modern army such as Israel since no horse will be suitable.) China only has 7.5 million horses today? Where will these other 192.5 million horses come from “real soon now”? Maybe these are really fallen angelic beings on fallen angelic horses.

It’s just another case where modern futurists don’t want to be confused with pesky things like reason, logic, facts, truth, etc, not to mention the Bible. These things all get in the way of their preconceptions.

[topcat54]

More unmitigated balderdash.

Facts are facts. And The Mind Is A Terrible Thing to Waste.

[Quix]

INDEED.

Using one’s mind to disagree with God

IS

A

!!!!!!!!!!!TERRIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WASTE!

[Quix]

It’s not clear from the 200 million Scripture, to me,

whether it’s entirely 200 million human souls . . .

quite plausible given certain contingencies and super natural logistics support . . .

It is also CONCEIVABLE . . . that the 200 million is fallen angles or demonized forces or some such.

I’m skeptical that the latter might be true. But it’s CONCEIVABLE.

[Quix]

One is

NEVER suckered

by believing in God’s Word.

[topcat54]

It’s not clear ... to me, ... quite plausible given certain contingencies and super natural logistics support . . .

RUBBER BIBLE, eh?

[topcat54]

Using one’s mind to disagree with God

Don't flatter yourself. Since God’s words are largely missing from your answers, I'm only disagreeing with your faulty reasoning.

[Quix]

Finite human failure to fully understand every aspect of mysterious Scriptures

is

NO EXCUSE

for failing to believe Scripture.

[Quix]

Not at all.

Just allowing God to be God and not try to cram Him into my finite tiny tidy little box.