Posted on 09/13/2009 11:48:38 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
(This is an update of a study I first posted in Nov. 2003)
Those who labor to understand the nuances of the battle described in Ezekiel 38-39 quickly identify two major puzzles. One is the timing of the battle and the other is the identity of Gog, from Magog. Suffice it to say here that almost no scholar, certainly none I’m aware of, believes the battle of Ezekiel 38-39 has already taken place. Some believe it will occur just before the beginning of Daniel’s 70th Week, while others believe Ezekiel is actually describing the Battle of Armageddon, which would put it at the end of the Great Tribulation. But all place it sometime in our future.
In my opinion, there are several reasons why Ezekiel 38 can’t be part of the Armageddon scenario. First, only some nations are involved in Ezekiel 38. For example, Saudi Arabia and Western Europe are said to be on the sidelines observing and others you would expect to see, like Egypt and Jordan, are not mentioned at all, although both appear later on. But Zechariah 12:3 says that in preparation for the Battle of Armageddon all the nations of the Earth will come against Jerusalem.
Second, how is Israel going to burn the left over weapons for 7 years as Ezekiel 39:9 indicates unless there are 7 years left in which to burn them? Rev. 21:24. says the nations will walk by the light of the New Jerusalem in the Millennium, so they won’t need fuel for energy then. And then you have Ezekiel 38:11 telling us that Israel will be a peaceful and unsuspecting people when the Moslem coalition strikes. Could that be possible near the end of the Great Tribulation when all the nations are gathering to attack? I don’t think so.
But most importantly, Daniel’s 70th week can’t start until Israel is back in covenant with God and the battle of Ezekiel 38 is what causes the covenant to be re-instated. (Ezek. 39:22) Armageddon comes at the end of Daniel’s 70th week, not the beginning.
As for Gog and Magog, the first thing to note is that while Magog is listed in Genesis 10, Gog is not. The list of 70 names in Genesis 10 is often called the Table of Nations because each of the men named there was the original ancestor of an ethnic group that grew to become a nation of people. For instance, Magog was the 2nd son of Japeth, one of Noah’s three sons, and bore the children who in time became known to the ancient world as the Scythians. They lived in central Asia and are believed to be the forefathers of today’s Russians. Many historical references support this view. For example, Josephus Flavius wrote “Magog founded the Magogians, thus named after him, but who were by the Greeks called Scythians.” And in some ancient Arabic documents, the Great Wall of China is called the Ramparts of Gog and Magog. It was built to keep the Scythians out of China.
So while the Russian people of today are likely descended from Magog, there is no such biological connection for Gog to either Magog or any other ethnic group. There is an unrelated mention of a man named Gog, a grandson of Reuben, in 1 Chronicles 5:4 but there doesn’t seem to be any connection between him and the land of Magog either. Clearly, while Magog refers to the millions of his descendants in today’s Russia, Gog remains a single individual.
Some say he’s a king or leader, and in a real sense I think that’s true but I don’t believe he’s of the human variety. The time spanned by his three appearances in scripture make that impossible.
The first one is in the first verse of Amos 7, but you have to be reading Amos from the Septuigent translation to see it. There, Gog is identified as a king, but of a swarm of locusts. To further shroud him in mystery Proverbs 30:27 states that locusts have no king, and observers of locust swarms agree that no obvious leader directs them, as a queen would direct a hive of bees for example. The swarm of locusts led by Gog in Amos 7:1-2 was symbolic of a judgment that was to come upon the Northern Kingdom, but the Lord relented because of Amos’ intercession.
(This hint also lends insight to another appearance of locusts, by the way. I’m referring to the one in Revelation 9, where a swarm of locusts comes out of the Abyss to afflict those on Earth who lack the seal of God on their foreheads. These locusts have a king named Abaddon in the Hebrew or Appolyon in the Greek. Here again, the Proverbs passage would indicate that these locusts are of supernatural origin like the ones in Amos 7, not ordinary locusts.)
The next time Gog’s mentioned is in Ezekiel 38:1, where he is called by name as the leader of a coalition of what are now primarily Moslem nations attacking Israel. His final mention comes from the Book of Revelation where he again leads the people from Magog against the Lord’s army at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:8).
Even if you’re among those who place the battle of Ezekiel 38 at the end of the Great Tribulation, the span of time between Gog’s last two biblical appearances is at least 1000 years, and while I believe that some born in that era will have long life spans, there isn’t any indication that natural humans born before the Millennium begins will live to see its end. This is especially true of God’s enemies, since all surviving unbelievers are removed from Earth at the beginning of our Lord’s reign.
So I’ve come to the conclusion that Gog is a supernatural figure. The Bible clearly states that behind the human seats of government stand supernatural figures manipulating the thoughts and actions of the world’s leaders. These figures are in Satan’s employ, helping in his effort to wrest ownership of Planet Earth from its Creator. Gog is at least the supernatural figure behind the throne of Russia, and perhaps is even Satan’s counterpart to the Archangel Michael, who commands the Lord’s armies.
In Daniel 10:13 Michael is identified as one of the Lord’s chief princes who in 536 BC came to Daniel’s aid in a supernatural struggle with the Prince of Persia, a nation barely emerging on the world scene having conquered Babylon just three years earlier. At its conclusion Michael told Daniel that he’d soon be battling the Prince of Greece, a nation that didn’t even exist at the time. In Daniel 12:1 we’re told he’ll protect Israel at the end of the age. And in Rev 12:7 he’s seen leading the angelic host in a great battle in heaven when Satan is defeated there and cast down to Earth at the outset of the Great Tribulation. Michael is clearly a supernatural warrior leaping across the pages of history in defense of the Lord’s interests. It makes sense that Satan would have a military commander leading his forces as well, since everything he does seems to mirror the actions of his Creator. With his multiple mentions in Scripture and the long span of time between appearances, Gog could easily be this commander.
Only time will tell if this view is correct. But one of the great advantages of living in our day is that we won’t have long to wait till we find out. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 09-12-09
I'll stand right with you, Quix, albeit somewhat less sarcastically. You and TC have some history, I'll take it. :)
Great post. The Word of God will *not* come back to Him empty. Not one little bit of it.
Wow, This is one of those things I have heard about for years but never pondered, questioned or wondered about. Does this idea come from Scripture in any way? Is it just tradition?
Good points.
However, the Temple pieces are already made. I’ve repeatedly read reports that it could be put together in less than 90 days IIRC.
BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
AMEN! AMEN!
THANKS.
GOD HAS SAID HE WILL return the hearts of the fathers to the children and vice versa . . . else He’d have to smite the earth with a curse.
I believe he will manage the healing between parents and children . . . of many . . . of earnest believers . . .
we shall see who else.
Sure.
Which level of the ping list
“A” least frequent but can be frequent if lots going on.
B, C in between
“D” most frequent about all I find interesting.
Don’t have that link handy. You could probably find it with a search on Jewish Temple and maybe Muslim
Well put.
I actually have a fair amount of affection for individuals even who seem to be rabidly and even demonically in opposition to me and my perspectives.
I have no quarter with the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al perspective etc. I consider it demonic and deadly.
I will assault it and ridicule it and every allegiance to it up one side and down the other as I’m convinced it’s from the pit of hell and useful to the enemy in causing folks to give up on God and land in hell.
Hope that’s clearer.
Yeah, some have personally assaulted horrifically me for years hereon. At this point, I’d miss it if she/they didn’t. Something would be missing in the landscape. LOL.
I have to review your points and get back to you later.
In Rev. 14 we see the one hundred and forty for thousand with Christ in the heavenly Mount Zion (cf. Heb. 12:22). They are worshiping the Lamb. We are told, “They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders;”. This description harkens back to Rev. 7 where the angels, and elders, and four living creatures are around the throne in heaven.
The fact is there are no verses that describe the activities of the one hundred and forty four thousand as “bring[ing] Israel back to Jehovah.” I’m afraid that is merely an unsupported theory of some futurists that you have adopted.
There is no solid biblical argument to support the notion that modern Israel is “the tribes of Judah”. There are many texts that demonstrate secular Israel is not biblical Israel.
If you can prove such from the Word of God, I’d be interested in the case you can make.
Non sequitur. You have not explained what Luke 21 means by including the phrase “and all the trees.” The fact is the “fig tree” in the Olivet Discourse does not match the alleged end-times Israel of futurism.
Oh, and by the way, Synagogue and Church mean the exact same thing.
Non sequitur.
However, don’t be one of those folks who confuses their interpretation of the Word of God with the Word of God itself. A lot of that is evidenced in this forum when folks just assume that everyone believes the same things they do about, for example, modern Israel as the fulfillment of prophecy. That is an idea built on a house of cards, but lots of folks don’t see that. They think it is the Word of God, and when they are challenged they get a bit bent out of shape and resort to childish behavior like name calling.
You seem to like that term a lot. Here is the definition:
Function: noun Etymology: Latin, it does not follow Date: 1540 1 : an inference that does not follow from the premises; specifically : a fallacy resulting from a simple conversion of a universal affirmative proposition or from the transposition of a condition and its consequent 2 : a statement (as a response) that does not follow logically from or is not clearly related to anything previously said.
You, my friend, are ignoring the obvious analogy throughout scripture where Israel is called among other things: the fig tree, the branches of the vine, the olive tree. Usually when an analogy is made, its meaning stays consistent throughout. The two olive trees referring to the two witnesses is also an example.
This “futurist” view that is assumed I just swallowed whole without thinking, studying, researching, etc. is insulting to me and seems like a “cop-out” on your part.
Why not turn this around for a change and let me ask you, who do you think the 144,000 are? What do you think Revelation chapters 4, 7, 11, 14, and 21 speak to? Or better yet, what have you been TOLD they mean?
Kinda makes you wonder what Bible these folks are a-readin’ doesn’t it?
But the Bible does not say that at all. As hard as you try, you cannot find one verse that says anything about the one hundred and forty four thousand evangelizing Israel (or however you wish to state it).
they will be martyred and the names of the twelve tribes of Israel (Jacob) will be memorialized in the New Jerusalem.
Where exactly does it say they will be martyred? Another futurist claim?
This “futurist” view that is assumed I just swallowed whole without thinking, studying, researching, etc. is insulting to me and seems like a “cop-out” on your part.
It may seem like a "cop out" but you are the one that is having a hard time finding Scripture to back up your claims. I'm just pointing that out. The ideas your are stating are well-known futurist claims. I must assume you are merely parroting what you have been told by others.
If study, research, etc were the basis for your theories, it should be easy for you to back up these ideas plainly and clearly from the Bible. That is what you have not done.
For example, in chapter 14 of Revelation we see the one hundred and forty four thousand with Christ in heavenly Mount Zion. They are not on the earth. They are worshiping the Lamb around the throne with the angels, elders, and four living creature. This plainly cannot be on the earth.
Why not turn this around for a change and let me ask you, who do you think the 144,000 are? What do you think Revelation chapters 4, 7, 11, 14, and 21 speak to? Or better yet, what have you been TOLD they mean?
Sure. Will you admit that your views on the one hundred and forty four thousand are not entirely from Scripture.
No, I am simply saying the the "fig tree" image in the Olivet Discourse is not a reference to futurist Israel.
Ignoring FACTS
PARTICULARLY BIBLICAL FACTS
is a major
doctrine, habit, hobby, compulsion, . . .
of REPLACEMENTARIANS, PRETERISTS, A-MILS, POST-MILS, and too many run-of-the-mils.
Perhaps you can do a better job helping him/her find the Scripture to back up his/her claims.
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