The Assumption of Mary

Christian Resources ^ | William Webster

[Mr Rogers]

I’m not certain LUTHER retained ‘Luther’s Marian beliefs’...

[Petronski]

This insistence on deprecating the Mother of God as some kind of mere life-support system for a Savior is bizarre.

[netmilsmom]

>>I left the cult long ago<<

What cult?

[Mr Rogers]

“While Luther could call Mary the “Mother of God,” he was far more concerned to say something about the work of God in Christ than about her, thus, he un-deified her by definition. His usage was not intended to be a quasi-divine statement of veneration similar to medieval or current Roman Catholic trends. When Luther abandoned aspects of Mariology like the Immaculate Conception, it served to further un-deify the goddess. Christ was the only one conceived sinless ruling the throne of the heart, the only Savior in whom one could place their complete trust. While retaining such beliefs like perpetual virginity, Luther did so in un-dogmatic terms, making sure that Mary was not to be deified for such an attribute. He implied in the Table Talk that it was Mary’s choice to remain a virgin after the birth of Christ, rather than her continued virginity being a miraculous gift from God.”

For the Catholics on this thread, I understand the whole “Mary is not a deity” idea. This article is written from the perspective of Luther, and would need to be evaluated in light of the common practices of the 1500s.

FWIW - the full article is posted here: http://www.ntrmin.org/Luthers%20Theology%20of%20Mary.htm

[Alberta's Child]

When we say "Hail Mary full of grace" we quote the angel sent to gain Mary's consent to made Mother of God. Her submission "behold the handmaid of the Lord" is a model of Christian faith.

That statement in and of itself is quite remarkable. I may be wrong about this, but I'd be hard-pressed to think of any other place in the New Testament where an angel (the archangel Gabriel, no less) offered a salutation of this kind to a human being.

[wagglebee]

I’m not certain LUTHER retained ‘Luther’s Marian beliefs’...

Then please point out specifically when he renounced them.

[xone]

Some Lutherans

Do you have a source for that statement? I think we can agree that 'traditional Lutherans' would exclude ELCA. Of course in general, 'Christian' might exclude ELCA on their current path.

Traditional Lutherans in the true sense of the word would mean LCMS and WELS. I believe in this respect, you are in error.

[Mr Rogers]

When ‘Mother of God’ is used as though she was ‘Mrs Holy Spirit’, or ‘God the Mother’, it becomes even more bizarre. The extremes in this debate are not good places to be.

[theanonymouslurker]

The Roman Catholic Church has elevated her to godhood.

LOL! That's just silly and is completely contrary to all Catholic doctrine. Do you actually read what you type before you hit the post button?

I was merely giving my interpretation of a scene I have seen many times.

So, at least we've clarified that it is your interpretation. It's just too bad that your interpretation is incorrect.

By definition, yes. But I am not suggesting you rely on her for your salvation or that you pray to her.

Catholics do not rely upon Mary for salvation either. You've created the perfect strawman. Nice work.

[Petronski]

The extremes in this debate are not good places to be.

That's why I hang out in the middle with His Church, the pillar and ground of the Truth.

[Petronski]

As someone who went through the Ordination ceremony for priesthood, I would disagree.

Would you care to share any further information about this rather extraordinary claim?

[wagglebee]

It had been my understanding that some Lutherans maintained Marian beliefs that are similar to Catholicism.

[Alberta's Child]

I'll even go one step further, too, Petronski . . .

Go back and look carefully at the salutation of the angel Gabriel. This salutation itself ("Hail, full of grace!") makes a very clear statement about the unique nature of Mary. In general terms, grace is the means by which humans are granted salvation by God and saved from the effects of original sin. Grace by definition is the result of Christ's Redemptive mission, and Old Testament figures did not enjoy any fruits of this Redemption while they lived on this earth (even those who were greatly favored by God).

In this context, this statement by Gabriel that Mary was "full of grace" can be seen as a remarkable acknowlegement that she had already been given the benefit of Christ's Redemption before He died on the cross and rose from the dead.

[netmilsmom]

>>Unfortunately, your church claims I MUST believe in something not mentioned in scripture, nor by anyone during the first 4-500 years, or risk damnation.<<

I’m so sorry you are uninformed about the Catholic church’s teaching on your damnation. Start here.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

Here’s something to look at

“Rather, it comes from and brings out more clearly the fact that there are “numerous elements of sanctification and of truth” which are found outside her structure, but which “as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity”.[11]

“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation”

Come into the light my FRiend. The Catholic Church doesn’t say you must believe in anything, to make it to heaven.
That’s up to God.

[frogjerk]

Text, without Context is Pretext.

I know it well. This is yet another reason of proof for the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Thanks

[xone]

Mary

Q. I've heard that Martin Luther believed in Mary's immaculate conception, in her perpetual virginity and in praying to her. Is this how Lutherans still view Mary today?

A. Like Luther himself, Lutherans hold Mary in high esteem for the chosen role she played in God's plan of salvation. Lutherans have never objected to denoting Mary as the "Mother of God" (theotokos, "God-bearer"), since she was the mother of Jesus and Jesus was and is indeed God. Since the Son of God was and is sinless, it is evident that some miraculous "exception" was made in the conception of Jesus through Mary that prevented original sin from tainting the Christ-child. This accounts for Luther's comments about Mary being "entirely without sin" (as far as the conception was concerned). Lutherans today are not bound to Luther's personal views regarding how this was accomplished; in any event, it is clear from Luther's other and later writings on Mary that he did not hold to the view that Mary was personally devoid of all sin (which would mean that she would have had no need of forgiveness or salvation). Luther also held to the semper virgo (the perpetual virginity) of Mary. This, again, is a personal view to which Lutherans today are not bound. Scripture is not clear on this matter, and Lutherans do not regard it as a theological issue.

In his early years Luther was still greatly influenced by his rigorous Roman Catholic and monastic training. In his later writings he clearly rejects invocation to Mary and/or the saints as having no Scriptural mandate or promise. None of this undermines the opening sentence of this e-mail, which should be underscored as the final word on this issue.

From the LCMS website:

http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2195

Lightman can give the ELCA answer.

[woollyone]

bablefish

[netmilsmom]

I have to say.
I truly adore your tagline!

[wagglebee]

Thanks for this.

Would I be correct then in saying that while traditional Lutherans may or may not share basic Marian beliefs with Catholics, they generally have no major issues with Catholics on the subject?

[frogjerk]

Along the same lines:

From The Meaning of Kecharitomene: Full of Grace (Luke 1:28)

"Kecharitomene" ('Full of Grace' in the Greek text) means "having been" or "have already been" graced.

It also shows a completeness with a permanent result