Because Lord knows, God didn't write in English. And when they hold the book to their hearts like a talisman and lift a hand to the sky, they sure LOOK like they are worshiping it.
How about that "Idol" outside Solid Rock Church? 
Posted on 08/17/2009 9:10:31 AM PDT by AnalogReigns
His disciples received Holy Orders...directly from the Apostles at/after Pentecost...Jesus only ordained the twelve. But all priests can trace their ordination back to the twelve.
Because Lord knows, God didn't write in English. And when they hold the book to their hearts like a talisman and lift a hand to the sky, they sure LOOK like they are worshiping it.
How about that "Idol" outside Solid Rock Church?
< rhetorical>did I say I as talking about you?< /rhetorical>
no
I mentioned the doctrine.
You personalized it.
Can’t say I’ve ever seen a Bible up on a pedestal, with candles lit in front of it, where people bow or pray to it.
If you don’t regard God’s own words as holy, you cannot regard God as holy.
Polaroid idolatry. LOL!!!!!
That ... was awesome. Well said.
You truly do like to spin. The Great Commission is cast for all of us, unless you truly believe that salvation is only for the recipients of Paul's many letters.
Further, There were no Bishops, not even apostles, when Christ gave the Great Commission. Apostles were not called such until AFTER his ascension (Paul first used the term in Romans). The title of Bishop was never used in scripture.
It’s not my church, not by denomination—never seen that before.
Besides being rather tasteless “art” yes, I do think it violates:
“You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them;” (Exodus 20:4,5 from the 10 Commandments)
It is an independent city-state.
You have very little information, from me...
Agreed! LOL
...on what I understand of the IC dogma that the Roman Catholic Church professes.
I'm talking about the Catholic Church. I've never been to Rome.
Your misstatements of Catholic Church teaching on the Immaculate Conception speak for themselves.
...they pose no intimidation to me.
Intimidation? O good grief.
“If Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit and had no “natural” human father, then His human form would contain a genetic code (DNA) that was identical to Mary’s. I would ponder on that for a moment and think about the possible ramifications of that salient fact.”
If so, Jesus would have looked just like Mary...you might ponder on that. All X, no Y = female.
“But if His intent was that Mary would have a role in salvation history beyond her natural role as a human being...”
Big if. After the first chapter of Acts, there is no mention of Mary. No attention is paid to her whatever after Acts 1.
Here are the verses I could find on Jesus, as an adult, speaking to or referencing Mary...
The first 3 are different accounts of the same event.
“46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.” 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” - Matt 12
31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. 32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.” 33 But He answered them, saying, “Who is My mother, or My brothers?” 34 And He looked around in a circle at those who sat about Him, and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.” - Mark 3
19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, “Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You.” 21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” - Luke 8
While I assume Jesus did eventually speak to his mother and brothers, he certainly didn’t jump up and say, “The Theotokos, she who is higher than the Cherubim, is here? Show her in, with reverence!”
One woman sought to give honor to Mary:
“While he was speaking, a woman from the crowd called out and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that carried you and the breasts at which you nursed.” He replied, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” — Luke 11
Rather than saying, “Indeed, Blessed is She, the Theotokos, the unshakable hope, ever vigilant in intercession and protection, Mother of life!”, Jesus replies, “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it.” The NAB footnotes say, “Rather, it emphasizes (like Luke 2:35) that attentiveness to God’s word is more important than biological relationship to Jesus.”
There is the Wedding at Cana:
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding.
3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.” 4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”
6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.”...You have kept the good wine until now!”...12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days. — John 2
The Catholic footnote in the NAB: “4 [4] This verse may seek to show that Jesus did not work miracles to help his family and friends, as in the apocryphal gospels. Woman: a normal, polite form of address, but unattested in reference to one’s mother. Cf also John 19:26. How does your concern affect me?: literally, “What is this to me and to you?”—a Hebrew expression of either hostility (Judges 11:12; 2 Chron 35:21; 1 Kings 17:18) or denial of common interest (Hosea 14:9; 2 Kings 3:13). Cf Mark 1:24; 5:7 used by demons to Jesus. My hour has not yet come: the translation as a question (”Has not my hour now come?”), while preferable grammatically and supported by Greek Fathers, seems unlikely from a comparison with John 7:6, 30. The “hour” is that of Jesus’ passion, death, resurrection, and ascension (John 13:1).”
And finally, we have the scene at the cross:
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. — John 19
He cares for her, even in his agony - but he doesn’t exactly exalt her, does he?
Nonetheless, that is what they were.
Then we have her famous last words in the Bible. Do you follow them?
"Do whatever he tells you."
I have to wonder if you really follow the words of the Blessed Virgin Mary in doing exactly as He says. If you did, you would be a Catholic, receiving the body and blood of Christ in Holy Communion. John 6 -- Jesus tells everyone to eat his body and drink his blood six times! Sadly, not everyone then or everyone now gets that message!
Agreed!
LOL
Then who ordained Matthias?
Act 1:26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
But all priests can trace their ordination back to the twelve.
Really? Who traces their lineage back to Judas?
Getting back to your original thesis, that His disciples received Holy Orders, Jesus made disciples of thousands. He specifically appointed 12 to represent the 12 tribes. Which tribe do your priests represent?
I hate to bring this to your attention, but the apostolic age is done. WE are the light of the world as Christ has given us His marching orders.
I consider Mary holy. I don't worship her.
But hey, here is someone who left flowers for her book
Here is a picture of a Big ole Book right in the front of a church
Here's someone lovingly touching his book
It all looks like a duck to me.
Nope. That is what they BECAME. The Catholic Church developed. Christ gave no titles, only authority.
Well here's the teachable moment then.
Catholics neither bow nor pray TO a statue or a crucifix, icon, station of the cross or any other image.
We pray BEFORE statues and crucifixes. The image is merely a reminder, a focal point. No one believes these images are God.
You truly are an arogant little person.
My discussion with you is over.
Tell me you're not suggesting Judas was one of The Twelve when Jesus spoke in Matthew 28:18-20.
Bzzt. Stop right there.
Cute of the author to mix his own little speculations in here. First of all, was it really a "Gnostic legend"? Was there an early Church Father who said..."The Gnostics have this legend about the Virgin Mary which we deny...."? Nope. The author or the scholars he cites BELIEVES it was Gnostic, but I have yet to see any positive evidence for making that sweeping claim.
And about this nonsense "it was regarded by the church as a Gnostic and Collyridian fable"...Ok, then prove it. Find me one ancient source that says so. I have never ever in my own reading on this come upon any Church Father who condemns this idea as either Gnostic or Collyridian. Again, this is modern speculation about the origins of the idea superimposed on the relative silence of the Fathers.
Another problem....the Transitus Mariae manuscript tradition is older than the author seems to realize. The texts go back to the 3rd century.
I'll check out the fact of Gelasius on the Transitus--but looking at the Latin it explicitly says the book is apocryphal and DOES NOT SAY the idea is heretical. Even a declaration of heresy against the book DOES NOT mean everything in it is heretical. It just means that SOMETHING in the BOOK is heretical. Suppose I took the Gospel of Mark and added a line "Christ is not the son of God." That would make the whole version heretical, even though there's only one wrong thing in it. It does NOT mean, though, that all of the other stuff in Mark is not authentic.
Another line in the author I'd also like to call out:
At least a score of Transitus accounts are extant, in Coptic, Greek, Latin, Syriac, Arabic, Ethiopic, and Armenian. Not all are prototypes, for many are simply variations on more ancient models (Juniper Carol, O.F.M. ed., Mariology, Vol. II (Milwaukee: Bruce, 1957), p. 144).
Really? A heretical Gnostic idea spread this fast across all the various Churches spread all over the world--was translated into all these languages--and NO ONE saw fit to complain about it until the Reformation? No one said hey wait a second here? The Ethiopians, the Syrians, the Copts, the Armenians just went along with the idea? Not even any Church councils to resolve the issue? Just widespread acceptance?
Here's the main point. There is silence on the question of the Assumption for a few hundred years. Epiphanius even says he doesn't know what happened. Then basically all the Churches proclaim the idea. No one brands it--the idea, not the book!--as heretical. It's widely accepted and translated. Now, is it easier to assume here that we have
A) a heretical idea that was suddenly accepted
or
B) an orthodox idea that was suddenly popularized?
I'm going with B.
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