Radio Replies First Volume - "Outside the Church no salvation"

Celledoor.com ^ | 1938 | Fathers Rumble & Carty

[GonzoII]

"Outside the Church no salvation,"

536. Do you maintain that one is obliged to join your infallible, one, holy, catholic, apostolic, and indefectible Church, if he wishes to be saved?

If a man realizes that the Catholic Church is the true Church, he must join it if he wishes to save his soul. That is the normal law. But if he does not realize this obligation, is true to his conscience, even though it be erroneous, and dies repenting of any violations of his conscience, he will get to Heaven. In such a case, it would not have been his fault that he was a non-Catholic and God makes every allowance for good faith.

537. So I deserve Hell because I am a non-Catholic?

If you say, "I know quite well that the Catholic Church is the true Church, which God obliges me to join, but what of that!" then you deserve Hell. That would be a serious sin. But apparently you do not realize this obligation. Your position is based upon insufficient or false information, and this leads you to a wrong if sincere conclusion.

538. If one has to be a Catholic to get to Heaven I shall be glad to stay outside.

That is an absurd statement, for there is no eternal happiness outside Heaven. But I understand what you mean. You believe the Catholic Church to be wrong, and you will not do what you believe to be evil that good may come. But God does not want you to do that. Nor do I. As long as you believe the Catholic Church to be wrong, you are obliged not to join it. Yet if ever God gives you the grace to perceive its truth, you will be obliged to join it, no matter what the cost in renouncing your previous attachments.

539. If a Catholic leaves his Church, and outside that Church lives a good and devout life, could he be saved?

You give an impossible case. To live a devout life is to live a life devoted to God. Now no Catholic can have a really sufficient reason to doubt the truth of his Church. If doubts do come, he owes it to God to make sure of his position before he acts, and inquiry will show such doubts to be unfounded. If he leaves without such inquiry, he is to blame for throwing away the best of God's gifts. If he inquires sincerely, he stays.

540. But what if he be fully convinced that the Catholic Church is wrong, even though his conscience be erroneous, would you blame him for leaving rather than violate his conscience by remaining?

I would blame him for allowing his conscience to become so convinced by insufficient reasons, and for not studying the grounds which absolutely guarantee the Catholic Church as the only completely Christian Church. His first difficulties should have led him to seek advice from competent guides.

541. So if a Catholic becomes a Protestant, he has no hope?

While there is life there is always hope. Such a man may return to the Catholic Church, or at least die sincerely repenting of ever having left it.

542. Are Protestants free to leave the Protestant Church, yet Catholics not free to leave the Catholic Church?

One may always renounce error for truth; but no one is free to forsake truth for error.

543. Christ died for all. He did not say that we must all be Catholics.

Since Christ died for all, it follows that He wants all to belong to the one Church He established and endowed with His authority.

544. Many clever men have examined the Roman claims and have rejected them. They do not think it necessary to join the Catholic Church.

Equally clever men are convinced of its necessity. After all, there are clever men who reject Christianity itself, but that does not make the truth of Christianity uncertain. We cannot argue from the degrees of intelligence in those who accept or reject the Catholic claim. Such differences of human thought prove nothing except that men differ. The real question is not affected. We must study carefully the value of the foundations upon which the claim rests.

545. You said that a Protestant in good faith could be saved. Does not that admit that his religion is sufficiently true?

No. Such Protestants are saved not because of, but in spite of their erroneous religion. They have simply been true to a conscience which was erroneous through no fault of their own.

546. What are the conditions for the salvation of such a good Protestant?

He must have Baptism at least of desire; he must be ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church is the only true Church; he must not be responsible for that ignorance by deliberately neglecting to inquire when doubts have perhaps come to him about his position; and he must die with perfect contrition for his sins, and with sincere love of God. But such good dispositions are an implicit will to be a Catholic. For the will to do God's will is the will to fulfill all that He commands. Such a man would join the Catholic Church did he realize that that was part of God's will. In this sense the Catholic Church is the only road to Heaven, all who are saved belonging to her either actually or implicitly.

547. Since Protestants can be saved, and it is ever so much easier to be a Protestant, where is the advantage in being a Catholic?

Firstly, remember the conditions of salvation for a Protestant. If he has never suspected his obligation to join the Catholic Church, it is possible for him to be saved. But it is necessary to become a Catholic or be lost if one has the claims of the Catholic Church sufficiently put before him. I myself could not attain salvation did I leave the Catholic Church, unless, of course, I repented sincerely of so sinful a step before I died.

Secondly, it is easier to live up to Protestant requirements than to live up to Catholic requirements. Non-Catholic Churches do not exact so high a standard of their followers as does the Catholic Church of hers. But that is not the question. It is much easier to be a really good Christian in the full sense of the word as a Catholic than as a Protestant, and surely that is what we wish. What advantages contribute to this? They are really too many to enumerate in a brief reply. The Catholic is a member of the one true Church established by Christ. He has the glorious certainty of the true Faith, and complete knowledge of the whole of Christian truth is much better than partial information, if not erroneous information. By submission to the authority of Christ in His Church he has the advantage of doing God's will just as God desires. If he fails at times by sin, he has the certainty of forgiveness by sacramental absolution in the Confessional. He has the privilege of attending Holy Mass Sunday after Sunday, and the immense help of Holy Communion by which he may receive Our Lord Himself as the very food of his soul. He has the privilege of sharing in the sufferings of Christ, by observing the precepts of fasting and mortification. He receives innumerable graces from Sacramentals and from the special blessings of the Church. He may gain very useful indulgences, cancelling much of the expiation of his sins which would otherwise have to be endured in Purgatory. And he is more loved by God in virtue of his being a Catholic even as God loves the Catholic Church more than any other institution on the face of the earth. In short, even as there is an advantage in being a Christian rather than a pagan, so there is an immense advantage in being a true Christian and belonging to the one true Church rather than to some false form of Christianity. Thus a good Catholic has many advantages over and above those possessed by a good and sincere Protestant. But, as I have remarked, if a Protestant begins to suspect his own Church to be defective, inquires into the matter, and becomes convinced that the Catholic Church is the true Church, he has no option but to join that Church if he desires to avoid the risk of eternal loss.

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[wintertime]

I am not apologetic about being a Christian, but do not like sectarian disputes.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I don’t either. Claiming to be the one and only true way to salvation is a good way to stir up disputes.

[Dmitry Vukicevich]

Mary was Christ’s mother and, therefore, more special to Him than the average person. Mary was not a sinner:

This is so wrong as to be laughable. So now there are two perfect people? Then why wasn’t Mary crucified too? You are speaking the doctrine of Demons when you take the focus off of Christ. Mary did sin and Jesus did not hold her in any special accord. Where is this view even Biblical? Mary sinned and died, she cannot intercede for you, she is dead and she is not a saint. Her DNA had nothing to do with Christ for he was all God unless of course you believe that God pulled a Zeus and came down and slept with Mary, which would mean she is no longer a virgin, or he is half man/half god like in Greek Mythology, none of which is Biblical. Jesus never said you should honor Mary, other then saying honor thy mother and father which was presented for all believers. Which version is it?

[Dmitry Vukicevich]

Precisely my point. All cults say they are the one true religion. I am still waiting on the Catholics to supply me biblical background as to their beliefs that Mary never sinned and that she can intervene between you and God, isn’t that what Christ did? Is there now a holy quarterly?

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“C’mon, you guys are too funny...Pelosie ex communicated herself??? Go ahead and ask her if she ex communicated herself...”

It has nothing to do with what she thinks about her position. It has everything to do with her actions.

“The thing that totally excapes you religious types is that the Chruch of God is spiritual...”

You’re incredibly wrong. Only a spiritual person could believe in whatI expressed. Only a spiritual person could believe that a person could separate himself from the faith without any formal decision of the Church officials. This, of course, escapes a person like you.

“You can no more add a soul to His church than you can remove one...”

Souls can be added to the visible Church through baptism and excluded from the sacraments through excommunication.

[Dmitry Vukicevich]

Like it or not, the Catholic Church is the only one that shares the complete history of Christ’s Church.

Wrong again, if it was only the “Catholic Cult” that Christ recognized why the need to send out Paul in a different ministry? Or John? or any of the other disciples? Shouldn’t they all have been following Peter around? You know the guy that denied Christ but, supposedly, founded the Catholic Church? You can claim anything you want and I am sure there are “documents” that the “Catholic Church” holds that states this but I am going to call it what it is “lies”.

As for the claims of the Roman Catholic Church that its history can be traced back to Jesus Christ, Peter, or the other apostles, such claims lack both historical and Scriptural support. The true Church of Jesus Christ was not founded upon Peter, but upon Peter’s confession of Christ’s deity as recorded in Matthew 16:16: “.. Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. “ Peter was not the first pope nor is there any Scriptural justification whatever for such an office. Peter’s own inspired testimony as to his position and ministry is given in I Peter 5:1-4. He further identifies himself in 2 Peter 1:1 as “a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ....’ History confirms the fact that there were no popes in the early church nor even in the Roman Catholic Church during the first centuries of its existence.

Roman Catholicism makes salvation a long, complicated process with no assurance of eternal life and forgiveness of all sin; to faith in Jesus Christ is added Baptism, the Mass, Confession, prayers to Mary and the Saints, good works, and purgatory. By contrast the Bible teaches salvation by faith in Jesus Christ alone, not by sacraments, prayers or works. Eph. 2:8, 9; Titus 2:13. Bible salvation is God’s free gift to any sinner who believes with the heart that Christ died for his sins and rose again for his justification. I Coy. 15:1-4; Rom. 10:9-13. Bible salvation gives immediate assurance of eternal life. I John 5:10-13. Carefully read and believe John 1: 12; 3:1618; 3:36; 5:24; 14:1-6; 20:30, 31. No church ever saved anyone, but Christ can and will save everyone who will come and trust Him as their Saviour. Acts 4:12; John 6:37; 10:27-30. Trust Christ today and be saved for all eternity!

[BnBlFlag]

“Standing in a garage does not make one a car.”

Great post. Sometimes I think our Catholic brethren get God confused with “the Church”.
It is not our “particular Church” that will save us. It is our relationship with our Lord. I agree with that statement totally and completely.
It is a form of Idolatry to worship a Church and it's Hierarchy. Scripture tells us there is only one Mediator between God and man. And that is the man Jesus Christ.
I can't find Mary mentioned in there as a “Mediatrix”.
Oh, it's in the Catechism. Since since that overrides the Bible, I guess it's ok then.

[JLLH]

Thanks! I get deeply concerned when I talk to my Catholic friends and they say, “Oh, I’m Catholic. I haven’t really read the Bible.” I can’t imagine facing eternity with only a pastor’s/preast’s word on what God requires. That to me is astonishing! Just like the mess with those who voted for our current Pres. - not doing your own research has dire consequences!!

[narses]

I get deeply concerned when I talk to my Catholic friends and they say, “Oh, I’m Catholic. I haven’t really read the Bible.”

So does Mother Church, therefore she has her priests read aloud the entire Bible every year. In public.

[paulist]

So if Mary was sinless, she didn’t need a savior.

Could you really be claiming that Mary never sinned?

You really need to read your Bible.

Romans 3:23 - “for ALL HAVE SINNED and fall short of the glory of God”

Romans 3:10 “NONE IS RIGHTEOUS, no, not one”

[chris_bdba]

“So - how many Catholics OBEY your no birth control standard?”

Lots of us do and always have. There is a small minority of very lound CINOs that give all of us a very bad name. Another thing annulment isn’t given to everyone who wants one. It’s not like you can just throw your hands up and get one easily.

[Iscool]

Souls can be added to the visible Church through baptism and excluded from the sacraments through excommunication.

Bodies can be added to your religion but souls can't...Your visible church is physical...The spiritual church is invisible...

[Iscool]

Amen...

[Iscool]

So does Mother Church, therefore she has her priests read aloud the entire Bible every year. In public.

That's one third of it per year...

Do Catholics really absorb all that stuff??? Someone reading a few scriptures a week to them??? Can they compare any scripture with corresponding scripture that may be read the next year??? Or the next???

[Titanites]

Your visible church is physical...The spiritual church is invisible...

Where does Scripture say that the Church founded by Christ is invisible?

[Friendofgeorge]

If you say the following prayer from your heart you will be saved.

God be merciful to me a sinner, I believe the Lord Jesus Christ died for my sins on the cross, thank you for dying for me Jesus, please come in to my life and forgive me for all my sins. I turn to you Lord from my sins, Lord Jesus save me.

A prayer along those lines, you can make it up yourself as long as it includes Jesus dying on the cross for your sins and that you actually invite him in. We are told in scripture to tell someone after we do this.

God Christ does not care if you are involved in organized religion or not. Yes we need to have fellowship with other believers so we can pray together and encourage one another in the faith. We need to read our Scriptures, the Gospel of John is a good place to start.

Being Catholic or whatever does not impress the Lord one bit! He is more interested in you developing a daily walk with Christ.

[Uri’el-2012]

I’m not sure why FR decided to offer religious threads, but FR has both open and closed threads on religion. And while some of these threads are primarily name-calling, some have genuine thought and discussion.

It was started because you can not understand this Free Republic
without the Christian, specifically Calvinist foundations.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[narses]

Try reading what I wrote, the entire Book, every year. More - every Catholic I know owns a Bible and reads it. Ditto something called a Missal which includes the daily Mass readings both for the season and for the Calendar of Saints. Then there is Catholic School where every year every student gets religion class.

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

“So annulment is sort of a do over? Sounds like a divorce to me.”

Since you’ve already tacitly admitted knowing little about it, it isn’t surprising you misunderstand it.

[Iscool]

Where does Scripture say that the Church founded by Christ is invisible?

The Christian is a Holy Spirit filled soul...It is not the body, the flesh...When we die, the flesh falls to the ground...The soul goes to Heaven...That's the result of the Spiritual curcumcision made without hands...Lot's of people understand the physical circumcision but it seems few understand what the spiritual circumcision is...

Jesus makes very clear that by becoming Christians, we have inherited the Kingdom of God...

And where is the Kingdom of God??? It is NOT in Rome...

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The Kingdom of God is Spiritual...It's within you...It is NOT in a building or a religion...

The church resides in the soul...

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Here are just a few that should point anyone toward the direction of the invisible church...

[vladimir998]

You wrote:

““Called for legislation” being the operative word here. Unlike any other denomination, the SBC has NO jurisdiction over the local SBC church. NONE. Their resolutions are non-binding in terms of legislating what the local church does or does not do.”

And yet they still supporter the murder of children and are the leaders of many, many SBC parishes. To openly support murder is a serious moral problem when you claim to be a minister, no?

“The posters urging you to place Biblical Standards above a particular denomination are indeed correct.”

I do not belong to a denomination. I’m Catholic. I’ve never been in a denomination in my life and never will be.

“As a Southern Baptist, I have no more nor less chance of salvation than you as a Catholic.”

Incorrect. While I do not presume to know your standing before Christ, I have no reason to assume you are saved or will be saved. I do not deny that you might one day be saved, but I do not resume you will be. Presumption is wrong. What you are preaching is the heresy of indifferentism. Sorry, I’m not buying it: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07759a.htm

God established ONE Church, and it wasn’t Baptist. No Baptists existed before the year 1600. Period. You’re in a sect. Period.

“It is NOT my denomination which will save or damn me - but my relationship to Christ.”

Christ saves. And He chooses to do so most often through His Church. That’s why He sent the Church into the world.
I doubt you’ll do it, but you might want to read The whole Christ: the historical development of the doctrine of the mystical body in Scripture and tradition by Emile Mersch. Someone has even put it online now: http://www.romanforum.org/mystical_thewholechrist_00.htm

“Standing in a garage doesn’t make one a car.”

No, it doesn’t. Likewise, claiming to be saved, doesn’t make it so. And being Southern Baptist doesn’t make you an orthodox Christian either.

“God will not ask you to what denomination you belonged when you stand before Him.”

He certainly won’t ask me because I’ve never been in a denomination. You have. You’re in a man made sect established around 1600.