Radio Replies First Volume - "Outside the Church no salvation"

Celledoor.com ^ | 1938 | Fathers Rumble & Carty

[GonzoII]

"Outside the Church no salvation,"

536. Do you maintain that one is obliged to join your infallible, one, holy, catholic, apostolic, and indefectible Church, if he wishes to be saved?

If a man realizes that the Catholic Church is the true Church, he must join it if he wishes to save his soul. That is the normal law. But if he does not realize this obligation, is true to his conscience, even though it be erroneous, and dies repenting of any violations of his conscience, he will get to Heaven. In such a case, it would not have been his fault that he was a non-Catholic and God makes every allowance for good faith.

537. So I deserve Hell because I am a non-Catholic?

If you say, "I know quite well that the Catholic Church is the true Church, which God obliges me to join, but what of that!" then you deserve Hell. That would be a serious sin. But apparently you do not realize this obligation. Your position is based upon insufficient or false information, and this leads you to a wrong if sincere conclusion.

538. If one has to be a Catholic to get to Heaven I shall be glad to stay outside.

That is an absurd statement, for there is no eternal happiness outside Heaven. But I understand what you mean. You believe the Catholic Church to be wrong, and you will not do what you believe to be evil that good may come. But God does not want you to do that. Nor do I. As long as you believe the Catholic Church to be wrong, you are obliged not to join it. Yet if ever God gives you the grace to perceive its truth, you will be obliged to join it, no matter what the cost in renouncing your previous attachments.

539. If a Catholic leaves his Church, and outside that Church lives a good and devout life, could he be saved?

You give an impossible case. To live a devout life is to live a life devoted to God. Now no Catholic can have a really sufficient reason to doubt the truth of his Church. If doubts do come, he owes it to God to make sure of his position before he acts, and inquiry will show such doubts to be unfounded. If he leaves without such inquiry, he is to blame for throwing away the best of God's gifts. If he inquires sincerely, he stays.

540. But what if he be fully convinced that the Catholic Church is wrong, even though his conscience be erroneous, would you blame him for leaving rather than violate his conscience by remaining?

I would blame him for allowing his conscience to become so convinced by insufficient reasons, and for not studying the grounds which absolutely guarantee the Catholic Church as the only completely Christian Church. His first difficulties should have led him to seek advice from competent guides.

541. So if a Catholic becomes a Protestant, he has no hope?

While there is life there is always hope. Such a man may return to the Catholic Church, or at least die sincerely repenting of ever having left it.

542. Are Protestants free to leave the Protestant Church, yet Catholics not free to leave the Catholic Church?

One may always renounce error for truth; but no one is free to forsake truth for error.

543. Christ died for all. He did not say that we must all be Catholics.

Since Christ died for all, it follows that He wants all to belong to the one Church He established and endowed with His authority.

544. Many clever men have examined the Roman claims and have rejected them. They do not think it necessary to join the Catholic Church.

Equally clever men are convinced of its necessity. After all, there are clever men who reject Christianity itself, but that does not make the truth of Christianity uncertain. We cannot argue from the degrees of intelligence in those who accept or reject the Catholic claim. Such differences of human thought prove nothing except that men differ. The real question is not affected. We must study carefully the value of the foundations upon which the claim rests.

545. You said that a Protestant in good faith could be saved. Does not that admit that his religion is sufficiently true?

No. Such Protestants are saved not because of, but in spite of their erroneous religion. They have simply been true to a conscience which was erroneous through no fault of their own.

546. What are the conditions for the salvation of such a good Protestant?

He must have Baptism at least of desire; he must be ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church is the only true Church; he must not be responsible for that ignorance by deliberately neglecting to inquire when doubts have perhaps come to him about his position; and he must die with perfect contrition for his sins, and with sincere love of God. But such good dispositions are an implicit will to be a Catholic. For the will to do God's will is the will to fulfill all that He commands. Such a man would join the Catholic Church did he realize that that was part of God's will. In this sense the Catholic Church is the only road to Heaven, all who are saved belonging to her either actually or implicitly.

547. Since Protestants can be saved, and it is ever so much easier to be a Protestant, where is the advantage in being a Catholic?

Firstly, remember the conditions of salvation for a Protestant. If he has never suspected his obligation to join the Catholic Church, it is possible for him to be saved. But it is necessary to become a Catholic or be lost if one has the claims of the Catholic Church sufficiently put before him. I myself could not attain salvation did I leave the Catholic Church, unless, of course, I repented sincerely of so sinful a step before I died.

Secondly, it is easier to live up to Protestant requirements than to live up to Catholic requirements. Non-Catholic Churches do not exact so high a standard of their followers as does the Catholic Church of hers. But that is not the question. It is much easier to be a really good Christian in the full sense of the word as a Catholic than as a Protestant, and surely that is what we wish. What advantages contribute to this? They are really too many to enumerate in a brief reply. The Catholic is a member of the one true Church established by Christ. He has the glorious certainty of the true Faith, and complete knowledge of the whole of Christian truth is much better than partial information, if not erroneous information. By submission to the authority of Christ in His Church he has the advantage of doing God's will just as God desires. If he fails at times by sin, he has the certainty of forgiveness by sacramental absolution in the Confessional. He has the privilege of attending Holy Mass Sunday after Sunday, and the immense help of Holy Communion by which he may receive Our Lord Himself as the very food of his soul. He has the privilege of sharing in the sufferings of Christ, by observing the precepts of fasting and mortification. He receives innumerable graces from Sacramentals and from the special blessings of the Church. He may gain very useful indulgences, cancelling much of the expiation of his sins which would otherwise have to be endured in Purgatory. And he is more loved by God in virtue of his being a Catholic even as God loves the Catholic Church more than any other institution on the face of the earth. In short, even as there is an advantage in being a Christian rather than a pagan, so there is an immense advantage in being a true Christian and belonging to the one true Church rather than to some false form of Christianity. Thus a good Catholic has many advantages over and above those possessed by a good and sincere Protestant. But, as I have remarked, if a Protestant begins to suspect his own Church to be defective, inquires into the matter, and becomes convinced that the Catholic Church is the true Church, he has no option but to join that Church if he desires to avoid the risk of eternal loss.

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[bdeaner]

If the Catholic Church is a cult, then Jesus is a cult leader. There can only be One Truth.

[bdeaner]

Romans 3:23 - “for ALL HAVE SINNED and fall short of the glory of God”

Romans 3:10 “NONE IS RIGHTEOUS, no, not one”

Obviously these passages are not meant to be taken literaly, otherwise it would mean Christ was a sinner.

The Scriptures predict the Church's glorification of Mary. See Luke 1:48, "From now on all generations will call me blessed."

[wintertime]

Jesus is the truth, not the organization.

We are to worship Jesus not any specific church. Worshiping the church is breaking the First Commandment.

[wintertime]

bdeaner,

There is only one purpose for posting an article like this. It is a a shove it up the nose insult to those Christians not of the poster's denomination.

It is far better for us to concentrate on what we have in common rather than our differences. Hopefully, what we have in common is our love of Jesus and our gratitude for His atoning Salvation.

[seoul62]

My Late Father, A Methodist is in Heaven. I am Catholic and I am having a hard time understanding this. My Late Father, a Veteran, loved us very much and was a good man./Just Asking - seoul62......

[GonzoII]

"My Late Father, A Methodist is in Heaven."

These threads are posted to teach the Catholic Faith not to make claims that non-Catholics don't make it to heaven. In fact the Catholic Church teaches that they can go to heaven.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324

You may wan't to look at post# 1 for an historical context of these books.

Regards, Gonzo

[bdeaner]

Jesus is the truth, not the organization.

This is a false dichotomy. The Church is the Body of Christ, according to Scripture. St. Paul speaks of all Christians as members of Christ, so that with Him, they form one Mystical Body (Cf. 1 Cor 12:12-31; Col 1:18; 2:18-20; Eph. 1:22-23; 3:19; 4:13). The Apostles and their successors were granted teaching authority, to teach the Word infallibly to the world, upon the commission of Jesus Christ and with the protection of the Holy Spirit sent on Pentecost. The successors of the Apostles, the Magesterium of the Catholic Church, on matters of faith and morals, were and continue to be granted with a charism, or gift, of infallible teaching, so that, as Christ promised, we will not be left orphans, and so that He can continue to lead us until the end of the age.

James Cardinal Gibbons, in his best-selling book of Catholic apologetics, The Faith of Our Fathers (1917), eloquently defended papal infallibility against many of the common objections of Protestants and other non-Catholics:

"You will tell me that infallibility is too great a prerogative to be conferred on man. I answer: Has not God, in former times, clothed His Apostles with powers far more exalted? They were endowed with the gifts of working miracles, of prophecy and inspiration; they were the mouthpiece communicating God's revelation, of which the Popes are merely the custodians. If God could make man the organ of His revealed Word, is it impossible for Him to make man its infallible guardian and interpreter? For, surely, greater is the Apostle who gives us the inspired Word than the Pope who preserves it from error . . .

Let us see, sir, whether an infallible Bible is sufficient for you. Either you are infallibly certain that your interpretation of the Bible is correct or you are not.

If you are infallibly certain, then you assert for yourself, and of course for every reader of the Scripture, a personal infallibility which you deny to the Pope, and which we claim only for him. You make every man his own Pope.

If you are not infallibly certain that you understand the true meaning of the whole Bible . . . then, I ask, of what use to you is the objective infallibility of the Bible without an infallible interpreter?"

Those who doubt the authority Christ gave to the Magisterium doubt Christ and His power to grant the gift of discernment. Christ did not cast us adrift in His absence; he did not leave us orphans; he gave us the authority of the Mother Church to preserve and teach His Word infallibly. This Church serves as the pillar and foundation of Truth, so that we know how to behave in the household of God.

"But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth." 1 Timothy 3:15

Of course the scripture is important, but it is the Church that leads us; it is the Church in fact which taught us what counts as Scripture and what does not. To resist the Church is to resist truth. When someone sets themselves up to interpret the scripture outside Church teaching, they are setting themselves above the Church. The following passage explains the importance of obedience to the authority, which includes the Church.

"Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves." Romans 13:1-2

This passage should be frightening to those who do not submit to the Authority of the Church. When Christ founded the Church and commissioned its leaders, he granted them the authority necessary to fulfill its mission. So when we, in an independent spirit, decide that we can do it without the Church, we are in fact bringing judgment upon ourselves. One of the greatest gifts of God was free will. The only question is how will you use it.

"Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you." Hebrews 13:17

"Then Jesus approached and said to them, 'All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.' " Matthew 28:18-20

Jesus commanded the Apostles to go forth and teach, not go forth and distribute Bibles and let the people figure it out for themselves. If you are not following the Church's teachings on Scriptue, you are actually following the "teaching" of a Church founded by man (Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII) instead of the Church created and commissioned by Christ.

"so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities in the heavens." Ephesians 3:10

Faith is made known to all through the Church. Its as simple as that.

"We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit." 1 John 4:6

The Church did not allow each community to interpret what was right on their own. The "Jerusalem Council" council, described in the New Testament, was the first recorded Church Council. The last was Vatican II. The Church has, and always will, be tasked to be the voice of truth to mankind placed in context with the current time and place. Just as the Jerusalem Council dealt with the question of conversion to Christianity, today's Church deals with questions of genetic engineering, contraception, and other issues of this time and place.

Worshiping the church is breaking the First Commandment.

Straw man. Catholics do not worship the Church. We worship the Lord, which is why we follow His teachings and trust in His promise to preserve His Truth through the teachings of the Church. We do not worship buildings nor people other than Christ; buildings of worship are constructed solely for the glory of God.

[bdeaner]

There is no salvation without a knowledge and acceptance of Jesus Christ.

Yes, but do not forget that the Church is the Body of Christ, as St. Paul taught us. So to reject the Church is to reject Christ. The Church is provided gratuitously with the charism of infallibility by Christ solely for His Glory, for the preservation and teaching of His Word.

[bdeaner]

There is only one purpose for posting an article like this. It is a a shove it up the nose insult to those Christians not of the poster's denomination.

These Radio Replies have been posted on the Religion Forum for a long time. No one seems to notice them unless they contain Church doctrine that Protestants object to. They are not posted to taunt Protestants. They are posted to educate people about Church teachings. Frankly, there is a lot of ignorance about the Catholic Church posted on FR, and it is as a result of that ignorance that many of us, including me, got fed up with it and started to correct the repeated straw man arguments against the Catholic Church. I've been on FR since 2001 and almost never posted on the Religion Forum, but simply got tired of the Catholic bashing and decided to educate rather than allow misconceptions about the Church to propagate.

It is far better for us to concentrate on what we have in common rather than our differences. Hopefully, what we have in common is our love of Jesus and our gratitude for His atoning Salvation.

We certainly do have more in common than our differences. That is a vital point to remember, and I honestly do not believe these posts on this thread or elsewhere are intended to inflame. They are here to educate people about the truth of the Catholic Church. In fact, if you read the article, it's actually very ecumenical in spirit -- pointing out that one need not be Catholic to be saved. I'm not sure why you or other Protestants react so negatively to it, to be frank. The only way I can make sense of it is to see the responses of Protestants as one of convinction. I'm not sure how else to see it.

When Protestants write about their faith, we Catholics usually ignore it (consider how few Catholics post on Protestant threads in the Religion Forum). But Catholics post info on Catholic doctrine, and the Protestants go nuts. Why? Don't you find it curious?

[bdeaner]

FYI, we have been having an in-depth, ecumenical discussion on these issues at this post:

No Salvation Outside the Church

[stfassisi]

“”Since her sinlessness is not disputed, the only other reason why she would have died would have been her own mortality (fallen nature), which pretty much leaves the Immaculate Conception out of the picture.””

Jesus did not die because of fallen nature from Adam and Eve.His resurrection proves that death has been defeated. Mary's bodily assumption proves that a creature of God in perfect union with God's will defeated the OT Eve's disobedience,thus making her the New Eve that overcame fallen nature by being “full of Grace”(Kecharitomene)

What you're saying is that mortality has to have precedence over perfection,even in the case of Jesus and Mary.This would make Adam and Eve's sin have power over God.

Mary is also the “Immaculate ark” of the New Covenant joined together with Christ in her womb.(not just some vessel as some protestants think)

Thus, we see the early church fathers write...

Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213–c. 270) wrote: “Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary” (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary).Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213–c. 270)

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides” (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin). Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373)

...and the scripture typology that goes along with this...

A cloud of glory covered the Tabernacle and Ark (Exodus 40:34-35; Numbers 9:15) = Type is
“And the angel said to her: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you’” (Luke 1:35)

Ark spent three months in the house of Obededom the Gittite (2 Samuel 6:11) = Type is
Mary spent three months in the house of Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:26, 40)

King David asked “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” (2 Samuel 6:9) = Type is
Elizabeth asked Mary, “Why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43)

David Leaped and danced before the Lord when the Ark arrived in Jerusalem (2 Samuel 6:14 - 16) = Type is
John the Baptist leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary arrived (Luke 1:44)

“”How did the fall from grace happen to our ancestral parents? By accident?””

By free will- because there can be no love without free will or we are just rag dolls as you have stated many times

“”More importantly, did the Fall happen against God's will, plan and knowledge?””

Of course the fall happened against the will of God or evil would be in His essence and God does not need to plan since He sees everything in one NOW .Some mistakenly tend to view it as a successive plan with God changing His mind because they don't interpret the scriptures in light of Christ

That God understands all things at once and together By Saint Thomas Aquinas

THE reason why our understanding cannot understand many things together in one act is because in the act of understanding the mind becomes one with the object understood;* whence it follows that, were the mind to understand many things together in one act, it would be many things together, all of one genus, which is impossible. Intellectual impressions are all of one genus: they are of one type of being in the existence which they have in the mind, although the things of which they are impressions do not agree in one type of being: hence the contrariety of things outside the mind does not render the impressions of those things in the mind contrary to one another. And hence it is that when many things are taken together, being anyhow united, they are understood together. Thus a continuous whole is understood at once, not part by part; and a proposition is understood at once, not first the subject and then the predicate: because all the parts are known by one mental impression of the whole.* Hence we gather that whatever several objects are known by one mental presentation, can be understood together: but God knows all things by that one presentation of them, which is His essence; therefore He can understand all together and at once.

2. The faculty of knowledge does not know anything actually without some attention and advertence. Hence the phantasms, stored in the sensorium, are at times not actually in the imagination, because no attention is given to them. We do not discern together a multitude of things to which we do not attend together: but things that necessarily fall under one and the same advertence and attention, are necessarily understood together. Thus whoever institutes a comparison of two things, directs his attention to both and discerns both together. But all things that are in the divine knowledge must necessarily fall under one advertence; for God is attentive to behold His essence perfectly, which is to see it to the whole reach of its virtual content, which includes all things. God therefore, in beholding His essence, discerns at once all things that are.

6. Every mind that understands one thing after another, is sometimes potentially intelligent, sometimes actually so; for while it understands the first thing actually, it understands the second potentially. But the divine mind is never potentially intelligent, but always actually: it does not, then, understand things in succession, but all at once.

Holy Scripture witnesses to this truth, saying that with God there is no change nor shadow of vicissitude (James i, 17).

[paulist]

It is to be taken literally, and only a twisted mind would infer it to include the Lord Jesus Christ, since other scripture passages (such as 2 Corinthians 5:21) clearly refute the premise. Or is that not to be taken literally either?

Nothing in Luke 1:48 would cause me to pray to Mary or regard her as an intercessor for me.

[bdeaner]

Corinthians 5:21 proves my point that Romans 3:23 and 3:10 are not to be taken literally as referring to everyone, since obviously it does not refer to Christ. St. Paul does not contradict himself. If Christ can be made without sin, so could His mother.

Nothing in Luke 1:48 would cause me to pray to Mary or regard her as an intercessor for me.

That's your loss, unfortunately. Mary is worthy of our veneration (honor), although our worship is reserved for the Lord. Mary, unlike her Son, is not God. But she did bear the Lord in her womb, and raised Him to adulthood -- and because she is Our Lord's Mother, in accordance with the Fourth Commandment, we, as much as Our Lord, are obligated to respect and honor her. I fear for those who denigrate Our Lady. If someone disrespects my mother, they are worthy of my contempt. I can only imagine the wrath incurred from Our Lord by those who disparage His Mother--I would not want to be them. Likewise, blessings are given to those who honor her, just as any earthly child is endeared to those who honor his or her mother. It's just common sense. Those who love the Lord, will naturally love His blessed Mother.

[stfassisi]

I can only imagine the wrath incurred from Our Lord by those who disparage His Mother

We have historical writings of such an incident regarding Nestorius(nestorian heresy) ,as Saint Alphonsus Maria de Liguori records.."that same tongue which was so persistent in blaspheming the Virgin Mother of God and her Divine Son, contracted a deadly cancer and rotted in his mouth."

[Dmitry Vukicevich]

Wow that is a load of bovine flowers.

Mary has sinned she has died and cannot intercede for you. Jesus never called Mary mother he called her woman, and don't tell me that was a title of honor because he called the lady at the well woman too, am I supposed to pray to every woman? Read Mark 3:31-35 “Jesus says who is my Mother and Who are my Brothers” yup sounds like nothing but reverence. Mary holds no special title.

[Dmitry Vukicevich]

That Church is not the “Catholic Church” but the catholic (universal) church. Peter was not the first pope there were no titles in the church only those that believed Jesus was who he said he was, and if Mary was so important you think either Paul or Peter would have said something about her? Where are these scriptures? In fact in 1 Timothy 2:5 states “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,”

[Dmitry Vukicevich]

It is to be taken literally, and only a twisted mind would infer it to include the Lord Jesus Christ, since other scripture passages (such as 2 Corinthians 5:21) clearly refute the premise. Or is that not to be taken literally either?

Nothing in Luke 1:48 would cause me to pray to Mary or regard her as an intercessor for me.

As well as 1 Timothy 2:5 “For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,”

Thank you brother.

[stfassisi]

Wow that is a load of bovine flowers.

Do you believe Christ despised Mary because He called her women?

[stfassisi]

Mary is written all over the New testament through typology and Christ would not join with a sinful creature to become incarnate or Christ would have sin in His nature since Christ's blood was part of Mary's blood in order to become incarnate.

A sinful Mary would mean Christ's nature has been corrupted by Mary's sinful blood that had to be part of Christ's blood in order for God to become true Man in Christ.

It's getting late for me ,but here is a whole bunch of typology backed up with the writings of the early Church fathers

There much more ,dear friend. Our Blessed Mother is written all over the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament as typology points out.

Luke 1:28 was distorted and mistranslated in protestant Bible’s-She is “Kecharitomene”-Full of Grace -not just highly favored.

Here is a re-post of mine that covers this and describes much much more about The Blessed Mother...

Typology of Old Testament Ark “verses” New Testament Mary who is the “Immaculate” Ark of the NEW COVENANT

A cloud of glory covered the Tabernacle and Ark (Exodus 40:34-35; Numbers 9:15) = Type is
“And the angel said to her: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you’” (Luke 1:35)

Ark spent three months in the house of Obededom the Gittite (2 Samuel 6:11) = Type is
Mary spent three months in the house of Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:26, 40)

King David asked “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” (2 Samuel 6:9) = Type is
Elizabeth asked Mary, “Why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43)

David Leaped and danced before the Lord when the Ark arrived in Jerusalem (2 Samuel 6:14 - 16) = Type is
John the Baptist leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary arrived (Luke 1:44)

Even the Early Christians saw this.

Some examples....

Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides” (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).

Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213–c. 270) wrote: “Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary” (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary).

Mary is the Daughter of Zion .

The important thing point out is that in the OT (esp. Isiah, Zephaniah, Zechariah, etc..) there are Messianic prophecies known as the Daughter Zion prophecies which tend to have a similar form. They begin with something like, “rejoice, O Daughter of Zion, for the Lord your God is in your midst..” and continue on with Messianic prophecy. The form of Gabriel’s Annuniciation to Mary matches the form of the Daughter Zion prophecies. This indicates on the one hand that these prophesies are fulfilled with the words of Gabriel which announce the Messianic expectation as being fulfilled at that time.

The prophets words were a foreshadowing of the Annuniciation. Gabriel called Mary Kecharitomene, which I believe captures the essence of Daughter of Zion and points beyond it. Basically Mary is being presented in Luke I & II as representing not just the perfect embodiment of the virtues of what it means to be Israel, she is presented as a certain personification of Israel. She stands in as Israel proper, and the language used throughout the narrative suggests the concept of “corporate personality” which is part of Hebrew thought. There are allusions and types in Luke I & II which further support this (themes and structure in the Magnificat, allusions to Abraham to which this concept of corporate personality applies, Simeon, Judith, etc..). Also, this understanding of what Luke I & II presents about Our Lady is an interpretive key to understanding certain passages in a deeper way (for example Simeon’s prophecy).

It also ties in with themes in John’s writings and sheds light upon them. The thematic parallels between John-Rev & Luke-Acts are many so it’s no surprise that this aspect of Luke I & II would mesh well with John.

The Importance of Kecharitomene

Kecharitomene (Luke 1:28), is Mary,s purpose ,it is Her essence and being in the divine supernatural order, the virgin from Nazareth is the “woman” of the Father. As the spouse of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:20), in the divine supernatural order, the virgin from Nazareth is the “woman” of the Holy Spirit. As the mother of the Son (Luke 1:31), in the divine supernatural order, the virgin from Nazareth is the ‘woman’ of the Son. The virgin from Nazareth, clearly then, is “woman” to all the three divine Persons who is GOD. She is aptly the ‘blessed among women’ (Luke 1:42). The Blessed Virgin Mary is the “woman” of GOD. The Son of Man never called her “mother”, not even once while He interacted with humans, because it will not be in keeping with His divinity or with the Oneness and Indivisibility of the Holy Trinity. The virgin from Nazareth is not the mother of the Holy Spirit and she, obviously, is not the mother of the Father

Luke 1:28 Uses the word “Kecharitomene: to describe Mary,s function,essence and being

The original Greek was kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle of charis, grace. St. Jerome translated it into Latin as gratia plena, “full of grace.” In Greek the perfect stem denotes a completed action with a permanent result. Kecharitomene means completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace. The Protestant Revised Standard Version translates Lk 1:28 as “highly favored daughter.” This is no mere difference of opinion but a conscious effort to distort St. Luke’s original Greek text. Had Mary been no more than “highly favored,” she would have been indistinguishable from Sarah the wife of Abraham, Anna the mother of Samuel, or Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist, all of whom were long childless and “highly favored” because God acceded to their pleas to bear children. But neither Sarah nor Anna is described as kecharitomene in the Septuagint, a translation by Jewish scholars of the Hebrew Scriptures for Greek-speaking Jews in Egypt. Nor does Luke use it to describe Elizabeth. Kecharitomene in this usage is reserved for Mary of Nazareth.

The word “kecharitomene” is a perfect passive participle of the verb “charitoo.”

Some have argued that this says nothing unique about Mary since Saint Stephen, just before he is martyred for the faith, is said to be full of grace in Acts 6:8. However a different word form is used to describe Saint Stephen. In the Greek the conjugated form of “charitoo” that is used to describe him is “charitos” not “kecharitomene” that is used in reference to Mary.

Saint Luke does not use Mary as her name in Luke 1:28 He Changes it to “Kecharitomene” this is a new name , and we all know that name changes in Scripture are significant - Abram (Hebrew “father”) to Abraham (”father of multitudes), Jacob to Israel, Saul to Paul, Simon to Peter, etc.
This describes her very essence and being.
Mary, is named “kecharitomene” - because she is full of grace-full of perfection

Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God, because she was perfect in obeying the will of God. She would not betray her divine husband for the sake of a man. The marriage between Joseph and Mary took place in the divine plan in order to protect the publicity of the holy virgin announced in the Holy Scriptures who would give birth to Emanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14)
Joseph was a chaste man, who respected Mary highly since he was given revelations about Mary and Jesus by the angel of God (Matthew 1:20), he accepted the special holy mission to help the promised Messiah and his mother.

Mary is the New Eve-More typology

Old Testament Eve- Verses New Testament Mary

Created without original sin, Gen 2:22-25 = Created without original sin, Luke 1:28,42

There was a virgin, Gen 2:22-25 = There is a virgin, Luke 1:27-34

There was a tree, Gen 2:16-17 = There was a cross made from a tree, Matt 27:31-35

There was a fallen angel, Gen 3:1-13 = There was a loyal angel, Luke 1:26-38

A satanic serpent tempted her, Gen 3:4-6 = A satanic dragon threatened her, Rev 12:4-6,13-17

There was pride, Gen 3:4-7 = There was humility, Luke 1:38

There was disobedience, Gen 3:4-7 = There was obedience, Luke 1:38

There was a fall, Gen 3:16-20 = There was redemption, John 19:34

Death came through Eve, Gen 3:17-19 = Life Himself came through Mary, John 10:28

She was mentioned in Genesis 3:2-22 = She was mentioned in Genesis 3:15

Could not approach the tree of life Gen 3:24 = Approached the “Tree of Life”, John 19:25

An angel kept her out of Eden, Gen 3:24 = An angel protected her, Rev 12:7-9

Prophecy of the coming of Christ, Gen 3:15 = The Incarnation of Christ, Luke 2:7

Firstborn was a man child, Gen 4:1 = Firstborn was a man child, Luke 2:7, Rev 12:5

Firstborn became a sinner, Gen 4:1-8 = Firstborn was the Savior, Luke 2:34

The mother of all the living, Gen 3:20 = The spiritual mother of all the living, John 19:27

The Early Christians saw this very clear...

“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155)

“In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.’ But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise ‘they were both naked, and were not ashamed,’ inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180).

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).
Mary was PRESERVED from all stain of original sin at her creation so that she would be a “New Creation”, the “New Eve”

Lastly,It is NOT fitting that the Mother of God should bring shame to Her divine son.Therefor.God preserved Mary from any personal sin,whether mortal or venial.Through the Grace of God,which was infused into her soul at the moment of her conception,at the very instant He created her soul and united it to her body. He did it in virtue of the merits of Christ.

No descendant of Adam receives the Grace of God except through the merits of Christ.The Mother of Christ was no exception to this law of Grace.Like every other human being who is descended of carnal generation from Adam,the blessed virgin Mary need to be redeemed by the blood of Christ,But wheras every other human being needs to be cleansed from the stain of original sin-which has contracted by way of carnal generation from Adam-the Virgin Mary did NOT need to be cleansed from original sin.Through the Grace of Christ she was preserved from the stain of sin.

Mary is closer to Christ than any other human being,because He took flesh from her and dwelt in her womb.
The closer one is to Christ,the source of all Grace,the greater degree of Grace one receives from Christ. Mary,therefor,received from Christ a fullness of Grace not granted to any other creature.Her Immaculate Conception made her worthy to be Mother of God