He then leaps up on the window ledge to try to cry the Masonic signal for help ("Oh lord my God, is there no help for the widow's son?") --
Posted on 06/28/2009 12:09:35 PM PDT by Colofornian
Joey Smith fired a gun that had been smuggled into the jail...
Why did an “innocent” man need a gun while he was in jail ???
He shot THREE men point blank...
Hardly the actions of a so called “martyr”
He was familiar with weapons and he shot to kill...
Hardly the actions of a so called “victim” of “cold blooded murder”
Joey Smith was only wounded from the first THREE bullets he recieved...
Hardly the results of “cold blooded murder”
200 in the group outside ???
And most of them sharp shooters...
And yet they didnt shoot to kill...
If they had he would have been dead from that first shot...
A LYNCH mob ???
And yet Joey Smith was in there several days...
They could have pulled him out and strung him up any time they wanted to...
He had been tarred and feathered in the past for raping young girls..
he knew the score...
May be they were angry because Joey Smith was just thumbing his nose at the law as usual..
he was sitting in jail, drinking booze and running his theocracy over in Nauvoo as though it was business as usual..
The men in the crowd were afraid for the virtue of the wives and young daughters, and the murder, thievery and mayhem that Joey Smith anf his Danites had done in their area...
Surely you are not making excuses for the actions of the mobster, Joey Smith, are you?
Obviously, his friends gave him the pistols because they were concerned for his life—with good reason, as it turned out.
He shot THREE men point blank...
Yes, Joseph did shoot at those who were trying to murder him and his companions—and who had just killed his brother. In a similar situation, I would have done the same. Even those you hate have the God-given right of self-defense.
...Hardly the actions of a so called “martyr”
Well, the word martyr originally meant "witness," and both Joseph and Hyrum Smith were witnesses of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Since I do not expect you to agree with me on that point, I will not press it.
He was familiar with weapons and he shot to kill...Hardly the actions of a so called “victim” of “cold blooded murder”
Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of a person by another person. The killings of Joseph and Hyrum were both premeditated and unlawful.
The term "in cold blood" means that the killing was done deliberately, not in the heat of passion or of battle. That applies here: the members of the mob joined a conspiracy to commit murder, and went so far as to disguise themselves beforehand.
Whether the murder victim is familiar with weapons or attempts to defend himself is beside the point.
Joey Smith was only wounded from the first THREE bullets he recieved...Hardly the results of “cold blooded murder”
You are becoming incoherent. Even if the first three wounds were not mortal, the fourth was. In other words, the mob kept firing to ensure that the man died.
200 in the group outside ??? And most of them sharp shooters... And yet they didnt shoot to kill...If they had he would have been dead from that first shot...
More incoherence. The mob obviously did shoot to kill, because they kept shooting until they had killed both Joseph and Hyrum Smith.
A LYNCH mob ???
Absolutely. They were a mob that set out to commit a lynching. Is that a difficult concept to grasp?
And yet Joey Smith was in there several days...They could have pulled him out and strung him up any time they wanted to...
What difference does it make how long Joseph and Hyrum were in jail awaiting trial? The fact is, the mob waited until the governor left town before attacking the jail.
May be they were angry because Joey Smith was just thumbing his nose at the law as usual..
Nonsense. Joseph and Hyrum Smith had given themselves up voluntarily to the governor to stand trial for the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor. While in jail, they were not a flight risk or a threat to anyone.
It was the members of the lynch mob who thumbed their noses at the law. They murdered two men and wounded a third, none of whom, in the eyes of the law, were guilty of any crime. (Perhaps they were not confident in the strength of the legal case against the Smiths.) Apparently the mob believed it permissible to kill someone you hate based on unproven allegations and without allowing him a fair trial.
It seems I misjudged you. You are making excuses for the actions of a lynch mob. I have read enough to realize there is no point continuing this conversation with you.
Good night.
Now, you're really getting incoherent! You're telling us if you were in these circumstances:
...arrested for high treason for abuse of power...
...due to implementing martial law as mayor of a city...
...as a means of trying to avoid arrest for the destruction of a printing press--putting what would have been a weekly publication permanently out of business...
...You would have...done the same thing...by...
...accepting a smuggled pistol while in jail...???
Really?
So-called messianic connection: Apparently J. Smith made some remark as he was heading back into town that he was going like a lamb to the slaughter. McKeever pointed out in the vid clip I posted how Mormons like to quote Smith as an attempt to portray him as some Messianic-like figure.
But what are the comparative facts? What if the Lamb of God, Jesus, had acted like Joseph Smith?
Imagine Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. He realizes he's going to be arrested.
So what does he do? Does he rebuke sword-wielding Peter and heal the soldier's ear had he been Smith-like? (No) Instead...
#1...before the soldiers arrived, the Mormon-like jesus would have hightailed it out of the garden across the river in order to not face consequences for his actions...
#2...then he would have had to be goaded back into town by a letter accusing him of cowardice (in Smith's case, the letter was from his first wife)...
#3...Instead of the true Jesus being helped along in carrying the cross by Simon of Cyrene, the Mormon-like jesus would have been "helped along" in carrying his cross by Cyrus of Nauvoo, who smuggled a weapon to the Mormon-like jesus...
#4...the Mormon-like jesus, instead of when threatened, would have actually joined Peter in cutting off ears with swords in hand and probably slitting throats...
#5...the Mormon-like jesus would have injured or killed three people...
#6...instead of having the famous line, "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword," I guess we have "he who lives by the smuggled pistol, dies by the rifle" -- but it's not very "Messianic" when we realize that what the true Jesus was teaching Peter has been turned on its head in the person of Joseph Smith.
#7...and then to top it all off...had the true Jesus acted like the Mormon-like jesus, we would have many millions more who would never even know that Jesus' "sword" words actually constituted a rebuke of Peter...
#8...and, in fact, we do see millions of the Mormon-like jesus followers now concluding (like you do): You know what, in a similar situation, I would have done the same -- and this entails not just taking up swords to cut off ears -- but actually still generations later defending criminally illegal actions of...
...(a) weapon smuggling into arrest situations;
...(b) possessing weapons in arrest situations -- and calling it "jesus-like";
...(c) using those weapons to try to kill multiple people.
[Yeah, just try mentioning you favor that the next time you try witnessing to a law enforcement officer or prison corrections officer]
Yeah, that's the portrait we want of the cross: A Roman soldier hammering a nail into the Lamb of God, and the Lamb of God responds by pulling a sword out of the soldier's sheath and proceeds to wound or kill three of them. (end sarc)
Now, you're really getting incoherent! You're telling us if you were in these circumstances:
...arrested for high treason for abuse of power...
...due to implementing martial law as mayor of a city...
...as a means of trying to avoid arrest for the destruction of a printing press--putting what would have been a weekly publication permanently out of business...
...You would have...done the same thing...by...
...accepting a smuggled pistol while in jail...???
Really?
So-called messianic connection: Apparently J. Smith made some remark as he was heading back into town that he was going like a lamb to the slaughter. McKeever pointed out in the vid clip I posted how Mormons like to quote Smith as an attempt to portray him as some Messianic-like figure.
But what are the comparative facts? What if the Lamb of God, Jesus, had acted like Joseph Smith?
Imagine Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. He realizes he's going to be arrested.
So what does he do? Does he rebuke sword-wielding Peter and heal the soldier's ear had he been Smith-like? (No) Instead...
#1...before the soldiers arrived, the Mormon-like jesus would have hightailed it out of the garden across the river in order to not face consequences for his actions...
#2...then he would have had to be goaded back into town by a letter accusing him of cowardice (in Smith's case, the letter was from his first wife)...
#3...Instead of the true Jesus being helped along in carrying the cross by Simon of Cyrene, the Mormon-like jesus would have been "helped along" in carrying his cross by Cyrus of Nauvoo, who smuggled a weapon to the Mormon-like jesus...
#4...the Mormon-like jesus, instead of when threatened, would have actually joined Peter in cutting off ears with swords in hand and probably slitting throats...
#5...the Mormon-like jesus would have injured or killed three people...
#6...instead of having the famous line, "he who lives by the sword dies by the sword," I guess we have "he who lives by the smuggled pistol, dies by the rifle" -- but it's not very "Messianic" when we realize that what the true Jesus was teaching Peter has been turned on its head in the person of Joseph Smith.
#7...and then to top it all off...had the true Jesus acted like the Mormon-like jesus, we would have many millions more who would never even know that Jesus' "sword" words actually constituted a rebuke of Peter...
#8...and, in fact, we do see millions of the Mormon-like jesus followers now concluding (like you do): You know what, in a similar situation, I would have done the same -- and this entails not just taking up swords to cut off ears -- but actually still generations later defending criminally illegal actions of...
...(a) weapon smuggling into arrest situations;
...(b) possessing weapons in arrest situations -- and calling it "jesus-like";
...(c) using those weapons to try to kill multiple people.
[Yeah, just try mentioning you favor that the next time you try witnessing to a law enforcement officer or prison corrections officer]
Yeah, that's the portrait we want of the cross: A Roman soldier hammering a nail into the Lamb of God, and the Lamb of God responds by pulling a sword out of the soldier's sheath and proceeds to wound or kill three of them. (end sarc)
Smith had ordered wine -- and according to Taylor it wasn't for sacramental purposes.
Roberts wrote DHC in 1902. What I was referencing, whitewash-wise, is what the Lds portrays...
...by Carthage Jail tour guides...
...Joseph Smith Memorial Building [film recreation of his death, where, of course, they never show him going for his pistol]
...other Lds articles in more recent times that fail to mention the shootout
I guess that bein' a "PROPHET" thingy ain't 100% accurate all the time!
How 'unknowing' is one when a PISTOL is stuck out the door and fired in YOUR direction?
Sounds like a MISSION field!!
He then leaps up on the window ledge to try to cry the Masonic signal for help ("Oh lord my God, is there no help for the widow's son?") --
Joe and Hi were in jail for destruction of private property.
Surely you're not advocating destruction of private property; are you?
Well then, I want to see some EVIDENCE that the BoM contains the RESTORATION that is so bandied about.
But may the Almighty Jehovah shield and defend me from all their power, and prolong my days in peace, that I may guide His people in righteousness, until my head is white with old age. Amen.
Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 5, Ch. 9
The following prophecy by Joseph Smith, although it was fulfilled quickly and literally, is rarely cited by Mormons.
July 1828. D&C 3:4. “For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him.”
On May 26, 1844, Joseph Smith made the following statement in a public sermon (Brodie p 374, HC 6:408-412):
“Come on, ye persecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! For I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”
At this time he was secretly married to over 40 women, some of them wives of men still living. Many who knew of these secret marriages accused him of changing the doctrine of the church to satisfy his own carnal desires, in violation of the Book of Mormon (Jacob 2:23-29, 3:5) and D&C 49:16.
FULFILLMENT: Almost exactly one month after this boast, on June 27, 1844, he was killed shooting his way out of the Carthage Jail. he shot three men, killing two of them.
Actually that was the original charge. It was then upgraded to treason -- because Smith abused his mayoral power by declaring martial law. Surely, you, Logo, wouldn't dare ever advocate treason or the destruction of non-pornographic first-amendment generating property, would you?
Surely, the Lds Carthage jail tour guides wouldn't dare advocate treason or the destruction of non-pornographic first-amendment generating property by somehow failing to mention exactly the genuine reasons why Smith was arrested in the first place, would they?
Ever notice how protesters try to justify the murder of Joseph and Hyrum Smith? Really, the protesters should get over that lie.
If they justify the murders at Carthage and Hawn’s mill, they have to call the murders at Mountain Meadows justified. You can’t have it both ways.
If he had kept his privates in his pants and not gone around destroying private property in the interest of keeping his shenanigans from being exposed, he wouldn’t have been in a position to be “martyred”.
Sorry, no sympathy here. The folks of that town obviously felt that he was going to get away with his affronts to public decency in addition to the destruction of private property and decided to dispense a bit of frontier justice. In retrospect, they unfortunately compounded the root of the problem.
The belief in polygamy, adultery and pedophilia in the name of God had taken root and BY now had a “martyr” he could hold up to the flock as “proof” of the so-called “correctness” of their abominable behavior.
SZ
Smith's first wife, Emma, essentially said this way before you did: "It was secret things which...cost Joseph and Hyrum their lives, and it will cost you and The Twelve your lives as it has done to them."
Don't you agree with Emma Smith on this, OMM? "It was the secret things which...cost Joseph and Hyrum their lives... (Or do you want to critique Emma?)
The fact is that it was a murderous mob of protestants that cost Joseph Smith his life. You can dance around it all you want but murder is still murder.
If Carthage was not murder, Haun’s mill not murder, then Mountain Meadows was not murder.
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