Quix's Commentary On Pope Paul VI's 1967 Populorum Progressio RE: Globalism Implications

Quix's mysterious thought processes and the Vatican URL link given ^ | 26 MARCH 1967 AND 23 MAY 2009 | Pope Paul VI & Quix

[Quix]

Quix’s commentary on Pope Paul VI-th’s:

POPULORUM PROGRESSIO

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI
ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF PEOPLES

MARCH 26, 1967

FROM:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_26031967_populorum_en.html

paragraph 13:

. . . But since the Church does dwell among men, she has the duty "of scrutinizing the signs of the times and of interpreting them in the light of the Gospel." (14) Sharing the noblest aspirations of men and suffering when she sees these aspirations not satisfied, she wishes to help them attain their full realization. So she offers man her distinctive contribution: a global perspective on man and human realities.

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Qx:
A couple of things stand out to me in this paragraph. “. . . signs of the times.” That’s a rather Pentecostal phrase! LOL. I wonder what his thinking was as he chose that phrase. Or does it mean something different in Latin than it does to Pentecostals in English?

In English, to Pentecostals it equals “END TIMES” and the Biblical signs thereof. I’d think, HOPE, that the Vatican translators would KNOW that. If they didn’t and it slipped through, then their scholarship is not very impressive.

This term: “. . . a global perspective on man and human realities” is a bit fascinating . . . Certainly the Pope would have reason to consider his turf of global reach—quite reasonably, plausibly.

However, it also certainly fits globalism’s goals, wording and purview, as well. Whether this was deliberately done or not, the globalist puppet masters had to be pleased with that wording.

A New Humanism Needed

20. If development calls for an ever-growing number of technical experts, even more necessary still is the deep thought and reflection of wise men in search of a new humanism, one which will enable our contemporaries to enjoy the higher values of love and friendship, of prayer and contemplation, (17) and thus find themselves. This is what will guarantee man's authentic development—his transition from less than human conditions to truly human ones.

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Hmmmmm “. . . a new humanism, . . .” Doesn’t sound that different than the Georgia Guidestones—the globalist’s ‘Ten Commandments.’

http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm

I’m not really that thrilled with the term “humanism.” Why would a Pope ‘need’ to use it. Humanism is NOT the objective of Believers in Christ. If anything, it should be “God-ism.” We are being conformed to HIS LIKENESS—if we are truly His Children.

“Humanism” is a satanic term in virtually all its modern uses. It is a seductive deception from hell. It pleases the flesh and flatters pride. It exalts man above or at least equal to God. I’m saddened to see the Pope use it.

The Use of Private Property

23. "He who has the goods of this world and sees his brother in need and closes his heart to him, how does the love of God abide in him?" (21) Everyone knows that the Fathers of the Church laid down the duty of the rich toward the poor in no uncertain terms. As St. Ambrose put it: "You are not making a gift of what is yours to the poor man, but you are giving him back what is his. You have been appropriating things that are meant to be for the common use of everyone. The earth belongs to everyone, not to the rich." (22) These words indicate that the right to private property is not absolute and unconditional.

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I’ve long pondered this issue. Biblically, in terms of Christian thought and practice, I mostly agree with the Pope. And, I believe that authentic Christians in most places in these END TIMES will end up sharing all things in common as they did 2000 years ago. And that those proudly, selfishly unwilling to do so will suddenly find themselves WITHOUT their goods and wealth AND HIGHLY LIKELY, without--outside the camp of God’s people.

HOWEVER, we can observe in the story of Peter and Ananias and Sapphira, that there was NO COMPULSION FROM the Disciples. It was VOLUNTARY.

I don’t see IN SCRIPTURE, per se, the “You are not making a gift of what is yours to the poor man, but you are giving him back what is his.”

Scripture indicates that—essentially—IN GENERAL—that Godly people are blessed of God. That can end up creating a false ‘vending machine’ mentality about God. However, the Promises of God are clear in Scripture and include being blessed materially for those who walk close to God. King David and Solomon are but two examples. Kenneth Hagin was Biblical in his teachings and practices on that score. Most of his ‘disciples’ have jumped off the cliff with it but he was not that far off, himself.

Yet, God does also seem to call some individuals to a life of material poverty and spiritual wealth. And, many believers would bankrupt their souls if God blessed them materially—idolizing things.

In fact, SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR that whether by the work of one’s hands or as manna from Heaven—ALL BLESSINGS COME FROM GOD. The rich man AND the poor man who construes it otherwise are both on thin ice, from God’s perspective.

And, I CERTAINLY BELIEVE that IF Christians had applied the—‘if you have two, give your brother one’ Biblical principle, the horrendous welfare system would never have gotten off the ground short of a globalist forced strong-armed thing. CHRISTIANS TOO have been far too materialistic in every Christian group and flavor. And the Church Universal and individual Believers have suffered great loss because of that.

Yet, it is NOT the stuff that’s evil—but the LOVE of the stuff that is damning idolatry.

No one may appropriate surplus goods solely for his own private use when others lack the bare necessities of life. In short, "as the Fathers of the Church and other eminent theologians tell us, the right of private property may never be exercised to the detriment of the common good." When "private gain and basic community needs conflict with one another," it is for the public authorities "to seek a solution to these questions, with the active involvement of individual citizens and social groups." (23)

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This begins to feel, again, like globalist tyrannical group-think, forced, coerced ‘charity’ a la the looming globalist Gestapo--forced conformity etc. As Shrillery said, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE THINGS FROM YOU, FOR THE COMMON GOOD.

SCRIPTURE is quite different—GOD LOVES A CHEERFUL GIVER—NOT out of compulsion, social pressure [perhaps we could say—nor out of law]—but freely AS UNTO GOD. 2 Cor 9:7

.

The Common Good

24. If certain landed estates impede the general prosperity because they are extensive, unused or poorly used, or because they bring hardship to peoples or are detrimental to the interests of the country, the common good sometimes demands their expropriation.

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Hmmmmm . . . that phrase again “The Common Good.” “LIBERATION THEOLOGY” . . . that ended up deepening the enslavement of the serfs—quite along globalist lines and agenda. “. . . demands their expropriation.” Perhaps morally. To do it as government fiat is tyranny.

Vatican II affirms this emphatically. (24) At the same time it clearly teaches that income thus derived is not for man's capricious use, and that the exclusive pursuit of personal gain is prohibited. Consequently, it is not permissible for citizens who have garnered sizeable income from the resources and activities of their own nation to deposit a large portion of their income in foreign countries for the sake of their own private gain alone, taking no account of their country's interests; in doing this, they clearly wrong their country. (25)

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True enough. They do wrong their own country. And likely they wrong their own souls. However, freedom at some point and for quite a distance, still requires that they be accountable to God and His Body of Believers vs to government tyrannical fiat—imho. And, I think the Believers as a group in every group have let evil hearted fat cats get off with horrific stuff because we were respecters of persons in violation of scripture. This is evident in the RC delivery of The Lord’s Supper to the likes of Scuba Teddy et al.

Unbridled Liberalism

26. However, certain concepts have somehow arisen out of these new conditions and insinuated themselves into the fabric of human society. These concepts present profit as the chief spur to economic progress, free competition as the guiding norm of economics, and private ownership of the means of production as an absolute right, having no limits nor concomitant social obligations.

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While I might technically agree with him from a Biblical perspective . . . the limits must arise out of each individual’s relationship with God and NOT be a result of government fiat inserting itself between the individual and God.

Yet, the Pope seems to be setting up a kind of foundation for LIBERATION THEOLOGY GLOBALIST mandate for confiscating private property. That’s more than a little disturbing.

This unbridled liberalism paves the way for a particular type of tyranny, rightly condemned by Our predecessor Pius XI, for it results in the "international imperialism of money."(26)

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This is indeed a paradox. Liberalism as currently practiced and, actually, as practiced for many decades . . . has been mostly about CONFISCATION of private property for WASTEFUL government bureaucracy and globalist tyranny types of programs.

And, it is the globalists and their tyrannical world government that will be the ultimate most intense imperialism—with a very deified materialism morphing into satan worship. It is more than a little odd that the Pope comes off speaking such memes, such phrasing, such themes.

Such improper manipulations of economic forces can never be condemned enough; let it be said once again that economics is supposed to be in the service of man. (27)

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That’s a lofty ideal. Though I can’t think of a Scripture, per se, that espouses it. “. . . can never be condemned enough ;” sounds like Communistic tyranny, to me.

I don’t recall a single Scripture condemning riches, per se. Riches can easily keep a rich man out of Heaven. A rich man who shuts up his heart to the needs of the poor is in trouble with God. However, we are talking about heart attitudes first and foremost and deeds secondarily. The idolatry is the root issue.

However, Christians of all flavors have demonstrated far too much [any is too much] of such idolatry—shutting up their hearts against the poor . . . Being given far too much to selfishness. Ignoring God to work extra hours for a bigger TV screen, a flashier car, more expensive Nike’s etc.

Reform, Not Revolution

30. The injustice of certain situations cries out for God's attention. Lacking the bare necessities of life, whole nations are under the thumb of others; they cannot act on their own initiative; they cannot exercise personal responsibility; they cannot work toward a higher degree of cultural refinement or a greater participation in social and public life. They are sorely tempted to redress these insults to their human nature by violent means.

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QUITE SO. However, most such situations have been and are set up by the globalists over the last century plus. Siding with their priorities, motivations, goals will only worsen such things. The globalists are collecting to themselves MORE of the world’s wealth at the expense of the poor and are determined to not just leave folks poor—but to exterminate them--massively.

31. Everyone knows, however, that revolutionary uprisings—except where there is manifest, longstanding tyranny which would do great damage to fundamental personal rights and dangerous harm to the common good of the country—engender new injustices, introduce new inequities and bring new disasters. The evil situation that exists, and it surely is evil, may not be dealt with in such a way that an even worse situation results.

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Thankfully, he does see the truth of that! Praise God for that!

Programs and Planning

33. Individual initiative alone and the interplay of competition will not ensure satisfactory development. We cannot proceed to increase the wealth and power of the rich while we entrench the needy in their poverty and add to the woes of the oppressed. Organized programs are necessary for "directing, stimulating, coordinating, supplying and integrating" (35) the work of individuals and intermediary organizations.

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Sounds like Shrillery, Biden, Puhlousey, Scuba Teddy and OThuga again. Bring Heaven to earth by government fiat. Won’t happen. Would NEVER succeed. Heart change is required else all other systems and means descend into hell. And ONLY Christ engineers heart changes.

It is for the public authorities to establish and lay down the desired goals, the plans to be followed, and the methods to be used in fulfilling them; and it is also their task to stimulate the efforts of those involved in this common activity. But they must also see to it that private initiative and intermediary organizations are involved in this work. In this way they will avoid total collectivization and the dangers of a planned economy which might threaten human liberty and obstruct the exercise of man's basic human rights.

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Is this a milk-sop in behalf of “private initiative?” Sounds rather weak along-side the other assertions.

Basic Education

35. We can even say that economic growth is dependent on social progress, the goal to which it aspires; and that basic education is the first objective for any nation seeking to develop itself. Lack of education is as serious as lack of food; the illiterate is a starved spirit. When someone learns how to read and write, he is equipped to do a job and to shoulder a profession, to develop selfconfidence and realize that he can progress along with others. As We said in Our message to the UNESCO meeting at Teheran, literacy is the "first and most basic tool for personal enrichment and social integration; and it is society's most valuable tool for furthering development and economic progress." (36)

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Sounds lofty. HOWEVER, UNESCO is a globalist organization that has been tirelessly seducing the world in behalf of globalism and globalist goals for many decades.

AND, EDUCATION was designed more than 100 years ago as a primary way of destroying the family and delivering the new Gestapo to the globalist masters untainted by God, religion and parental influences. Certainly I’m for education—God fearing education. I assume the Pope was, too. Yet, why this praise, seemingly, for UNESCO. Was he that ignorant of UNESCO’S aims? I doubt that.

We also rejoice at the good work accomplished in this field by private initiative, by the public authorities, and by international organizations. These are the primary agents of development, because they enable man to act for himself.

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Thankfully, he included “private initiative.” HOWEVER, he seemed to give the lion’s share of support for ‘public authorities and INTERNATIONAL organizations.’ International organizations have been main tools of globalism for many decades. The Pope MUST have known that. If he was too ignorant to know that, then the Vatican information gathering and analyzing apparatus was still in kindergarten or chronically drunk on their rears.

IF he knew that—as he should have—and still ended up supporting INTERNATIOINAL ORGS, more or less carte blanche--then he’s complicit in globalism plain and simple.

Population Growth

37. There is no denying that the accelerated rate of population growth brings many added difficulties to the problems of development where the size of the population grows more rapidly than the quantity of available resources to such a degree that things seem to have reached an impasse. In such circumstances people are inclined to apply drastic remedies to reduce the birth rate.

There is no doubt that public authorities can intervene in this matter, within the bounds of their competence. They can instruct citizens on this subject and adopt appropriate measures, so long as these are in conformity with the dictates of the moral law and the rightful freedom of married couples is preserved completely intact. When the inalienable right of marriage and of procreation is taken away, so is human dignity.

Finally, it is for parents to take a thorough look at the matter and decide upon the number of their children. This is an obligation they take upon themselves, before their children already born, and before the community to which they belong—following the dictates of their own consciences informed by God's law authentically interpreted, and bolstered by their trust in Him. (39)

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This whole section is MOST CURIOUS. He seems—SEEMS to tread a thin line here. He doesn’t actually violate RC dogma—but he sure seems to come close. He sure seems to walk as close as possible to globalist constructions on population and to globalist goals, aims and methods. Disturbing.

A Full-Bodied Humanism

42. The ultimate goal is a fullbodied humanism. (44) And does this not mean the fulfillment of the whole man and of every man? A narrow humanism, closed in on itself and not open to the values of the spirit and to God who is their source, could achieve apparent success, for man can set about organizing terrestrial realities without God. But "closed off from God, they will end up being directed against man. A humanism closed off from other realities becomes inhuman." (45)

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I was glad to see this paragraph. However, along-side all the others, it comes across as a bit of a weak milk-sop.

True humanism points the way toward God and acknowledges the task to which we are called, the task which offers us the real meaning of human life. Man is not the ultimate measure of man. Man becomes truly man only by passing beyond himself. In the words of Pascal: "Man infinitely surpasses man." (46)

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This, comes across to me as an upside-down way of putting it. GOD in Christ-redeemed RELATIONSHIP WITH MAN results in individuals becoming TRULY HUMAN as God designed them to be. Humanism—even “True Humanism” doesn’t point to God, imho. Humanism as a term, as a concept is still tainted—to me--with its origins in hell.

Three Major Duties

44. This duty concerns first and foremost the wealthier nations. Their obligations stem from the human and supernatural brotherhood of man, and present a three-fold obligation: 1) mutual solidarity—the aid that the richer nations must give to developing nations; 2) social justice—the rectification of trade relations between strong and weak nations; 3) universal charity—the effort to build a more humane world community, where all can give and receive, and where the progress of some is not bought at the expense of others. The matter is urgent, for on it depends the future of world civilization.

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This sounds quite lofty. However, it’s almost straight globalist dogma. It’s full of globalist euphemisms—beginning with ‘the brotherhood of man.” “ . . . to build a more humane world community.”

Who could be against that? Any thinking person aware of THE MEANS and the eventual structure of the purported ‘HUMANE” WORLD community. There’s that emphasis on HUMANISM and WORLD again. Disturbing.

Aid to Developing Nations

45. "If a brother or a sister be naked and in want of daily food," says St. James, "and one of you say to them, 'Go in peace, be warm and filled,' yet you do not give them what is necessary for the body, what does it profit?" (48) Today no one can be unaware of the fact that on some continents countless men and women are ravished by hunger and countless children are undernourished. Many children die at an early age; many more of them find their physical and mental growth retarded. Thus whole populations are immersed in pitiable circumstances and lose heart.

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Quite so. And, it IS the Body of Christ’s duty and privilege to help rectify such situations, conditions etc. And we have failed far too much at that task.

HOWEVER, WE HAVE ALSO SUCCEEDED at correcting such, FAR MORE THAN globalist government efforts have.

Joya is still working on getting me the 2nd half. So I’m going to go ahead and post this much. I’ll add the 2nd half later or tomorrow, Lord willing and the Creek Indians don’t rise up.

Joya’s impression of the last half is that it’s much MORE full of globalism than this half. God have mercy.

Satan’s seductions have been very skillful and comprehensive for millennia. And, he no doubt targeted the Vatican from early on. . . . as he has and does any even possibly authentic expression of Christianity. Sigh.

[Quix]

My own conviction about such is that we must, MUST be sensitive and obedient to HOLY SPIRIT FOREMOST—without being flakey! LOL. Yet when Holy Spirit has been clear and we clearly know it has been THE HOLY SPIRIT—then we must be responsive.

God alone knows the snares and entrapments that close entanglements with those increasingly in satan’s grasp might result in for us, almost unawares because of the . . . essentially . . . more or less carnal relationship with those who refuse to love and submit to God.

[Quix]

INDEED.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for your wonderful essay-post, dearest sister in Christ!

p.s.: Just in case anyone hasn't noticed this, "OThuga" has been working overtime to co-opt Christians institutions and understandings, and a prime target is the Roman Catholic Church. He'll invoke these corrupt "Catholics" as approving and justifying his anti-God policies, as fellow "team members" on "Team Progress" as "we" go forward in "changing" the human future. Indeed, as you say Quix, these are "dead men walking." At the very least, they are idolators; i.e., people who have fallen away from the one Great Commandment: To love God with all one's heart, and mind, and soul, and strength.

Oh so very true.

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed.

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. - 2 Timothy 2:24-26

[marbren]

Jude 1:20-23 (NIV)

But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

[melsec]

I have to admit that the attempt to take Godly notions and place them in the political sphere has been an absolute boon for socialism. Social justice has been used and abused both as a term and as a movement within just about any church I could name here in Australia. It’s strange but the more churches seem to concentrate on social issues the less they tend to bother about the state of people’s souls and after all what is more important the eternal or temporal.

Mel

[Quix]

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. - 2 Timothy 2:24-26

= = =

QUITE SO.

Quite so.

Thx.

[Quix]

But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Be merciful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

= = =

Great points. Thx.

[Quix]

I have to admit that the attempt to take Godly notions and place them in the political sphere has been an absolute boon for socialism. Social justice has been used and abused both as a term and as a movement within just about any church I could name here in Australia. It’s strange but the more churches seem to concentrate on social issues the less they tend to bother about the state of people’s souls and after all what is more important the eternal or temporal.

= = =

Boy, that’s the truth!

The Lord is about both . . . though the eternal is by far the priority.

[mad_as_he$$]

Well the Creeks may be calm but the Lokota are restless.

[marbren]

These verses may refer to the three types of people in the world

Be merciful to those who doubt Fellow believers, beggars for grace, the humble, Children of God, Wheat.

snatch others from the fire and save them Children of wrath, unbelievers.

to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. Children of the Devil, Pharisees, self righteous, weeds

[JesusBmyGod]

Thank you both for your comments and discussion. Shalom

[Quix]

QX:
Most RC responses are some variation of MY DADDY IS !!!!TOO!!!! BIGGER THAN YOUR DADDY, SO HARUMPH [sticks tongue out]!

BB:
Dear brother in Christ, that observation seems most unworthy of you. In my very humble opinion. For whatever it's worth.

QX:
THANKFULLY, Dear Sister, on this thread it was NOT "Most" RC responses.

A fairly careful count found that 10 RC responses were easily classified as cheeky and hostile. Some were outrageously so. My description of "MY DADDY IS !!!!TOO!!!! BIGGER THAN YOUR DADDY, SO HARUMPH [sticks tongue out]!" was a VERY MILD analogy compared to the actual language used against me.

And that on a thread where I've been fairly strict with my own fiesty language.

The positive or at least collegial, genuine dialogue sorts of RC posts numbered 15.

That resulted in the interesting PERCENTAGE of the

CHEEKY-HOSTILE POSTS EQUALING: 66.666666666666666666666667%

of the RC posts to me on this thread.

I'm fairly certain that on the chat room thread about globalism needing the death of the Republic and RC-ism . . . the percentage would be at least that high.

This is not--entirely, per se, a minor issue.

MOST OF THE TIME, in some respects, all the time, I suspect that the driving energy behind such assaultive word choices is overwhelmingly psychodynamic. Of course, the enemy of our souls is quite skillful at using such forces to our hurt and through us to hurt others and the cause of Christ. Therefore, I don't think we can say the 'cause' is totally psychodynamic--at some level, it's also demonic--to whatever degree.

I think we might summarize the probable major forces toward such wording along the following lines:

1. Psychodynamic/demonic--striking out fiercely against

A) perceived threat
(1) to one's pride
(2) to one's 'Sacred values, IN-group, church, haven'
(3) to one's safety, in some sense . . .
(4) to one's turf, property, in some sense

2. Also against a perceived, targeted, labeled OUT-group, force, identity--long labled as beyond the pale and/or a threat compared to one's IN-group of the Vatican edifice.

I think some who strike out against me or Dr. Eckleburg do so to

1. DEFEND THE FAITH in the most intense and energetic ways they know how to--failing to really wrap their understanding and beliefs around the fact that FAITH IN GOD is unassailable at some level--it is between the individual and God and untouchable by external forces--in some key respects.

Yet, for some, The "MOTHER CHURCH" as an organization, as an IN-GROUP; as a haven; as a bulwark against chaos and disintegration; as a bulwark literally against hell . . . is more or less EQUATED WITH GOD.

God is not just Father, Son, Spirit . . . Father, Son, Spirit, Mary, Saints, the bureaucracy, leadership, forms, structures, rituals, customs, even buildings and adornments are all morphed into some sort of indivisible mass--ALL of which one then treats AS GOD. That's frightful for anyone truly understanding Biblical priorities. Yet, it's a very common human tendency.

2. Others do so, as mentioned, out of psychodynamic REACTIVE ATTACHMENT DISORDERED childhood reasons. The most strident of the lot certainly (0.00% doubt--it's simply outrageously obvious) they certainly do so out of this dyanmic. Some seem so far over the line and to have lived over the line so intensely for so long, I seriously am concerned about how much demonic influence whispers in their ears on such matters.

For probably all of these individuals, too, God is not just Father, Son, Spirit . . . Father, Son, Spirit, Mary, Saints, the bureaucracy, leadership, forms, structures, rituals, customs, even buildings and adornments are all morphed into some sort of indivisible mass--ALL of which one then treats AS GOD.

And, sadly, for SOME of those individuals . . . one begins to wonder where GOD IN REALITY is in their life. It begins to seem like THE STRUCTURE, the human organization and all the hoopla is SO MUCH GOD TO THEM that GOD HIMSELF has little place in their lives. That's serious and frightful.

Another serious and somewhat complicated issue in all this has to do with a mind-set which seems to believe that all the verses in Scripture about responding with Love, gentleness, long suffering patience etc. etc. etc. 100% NEGATE any other Holy Spirit led response in any context ever, at any time.

I don't subscribe to that view. Christ did not behave that way.

Christ WAS quite HARSHLY FIERCE toward the hard hearted, the proud, the idolatrous, the arrogant RELIGIOUS LEADERS AND THEIR MENTALITY AND SPIRIT. And on occasion, He DOES AND WILL call for many of us to be similarly harshly fierce against such evils. I don't pretend to get such leading 100% accurately all the time by any means. I am painfully human as you all vividly know.

However, I DO EARNESTLY endeavor to speak even the stark, even the harsh, even the stern and fierce truth in love. I am mocked about that up one side and down the other by certain known regulars who respond to me. At some point, that will have to be between them and God. God knows the motivation of my heart.

I am ROUTINELY accused of being clueless, an idiot, insane, deliberately seeking the destruction of all that's holy and Roman Catholic; psychotic; having 'no idea what [I'm] talking about' is one of the mildest assaults . . . "WHACKEDORUM FORMATESSIO" was a cute one in this thread . . . I was 2-3 times accused of being an unmentionable idiot . . . Another cute one was "one flailing nutso factoid after another."

At some level all such is chaff and one can easily turn the other cheek. I've turned far more than the other cheek over far worse stuff without breaking a sweat.

However, the folks who throw such about are hurting at some level . . . and . . . they are hurting their cause and the cause of Christendom needlessly.

And I observe no Roman Catholic effort to deal with such folks redemptively.

I realize that my options to have any redemptive impact on such tortured souls are severely limited by my perspective, my positions, my personality and my style. HOWEVER, I CAN AT LEAST shine some sort of mirrored spotlight on such attitudes of spirit. I have observed over many decades that HOLY SPIRIT OFTEN succeeds in haunting folks [typically over a long period of time] with some of the more memorable phrasing until some redemptive influence results.

Do I DARE NOT offer such grist for the mill to Holy Spirit's work? I don't have a peace about that.

DEAR SISTER, I earnestly seek The Lord about what is beneath me as His child and representative. I'll continue to pray about your rebuke and exhortation.

Can you understand why, from my experiences and perspective, this is not just an issue I can roll over and play dead in 100% agreement on?

[Quix]

These verses may refer to the three types of people in the world

Be merciful to those who doubt Fellow believers, beggars for grace, the humble, Children of God, Wheat.

snatch others from the fire and save them Children of wrath, unbelievers.

to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. Children of the Devil, Pharisees, self righteous, weeds

= = =

I believe that’s an excellent and anointed insight, marbren.

Thanks tons.

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind words.

[Marysecretary]

Our RC brethren have insulted you so many times. I’m glad you have the truth behind you and a tough skin. They have nothing to say so they call us idiots, mentally retarded, liars, you name it. It would be nice to have a real discussion once in a while without having to submit to their nastiness.

[betty boop]

YUP. INDEED. Yet, the human critter is persistently of the mind-set—“WON’T HAPPEN TO ME! I don’t need to wear my seat-belt.” “I thank God that I’m not like that publican over there.” MY GROUP, church, congregation, family, person . . . is exempt from such troubles, flaws. WE’RE DIFFERENT! WE’RE NATURALLY [organizationally, habitually, practicedly, orthodoxly, ritually, labeled-ly] AUTOMATICALLY SAINTLY! . . . by definition.... And they fail to see that they have ALREADY BEEN seduced by lies from hell. They are ALREADY snared in satan’s trap.

So very true, Quix. And yet groups, churches, congregations, families, persons, organizations, habits, practices, orthodoxy, rituals, and/or labels are not what save one, taken singly or collectively. What saves one is to live in Christ. But only the poor in spirit can abide in Christ. The vanity and narcissism you describe in the above italics is far, far from the poverty of spirit, or humility, that the Lord our God requires. But from these Satan will bring in an abundant harvest....

Pride — pride of life, pride of mind — arrogance, vanity, narcissism — all are vicious traps. They make Satan's "job" easy for him.

I have this overwhelming sense that objective Evil is moving and gathering strength in this world largely because of loss of faith in God.

I pray God to strengthen us in our faith, for Christians to look to their hearts; that He may bless us and our fair country.

Thank you so very much, dear brother in Christ, for your kind words, and for your profoundly insightful essay/post!

All glory be to God!

[Mad Dawg]

Not only is my daddy bigger than your daddy, but he has a WAY prettier dress -- and slippers to die for.

So there.

[Alamo-Girl]

Er, if you have had 25 replies from Catholics and 10 were cheeky and 15 were not cheeky, then the degree of cheekiness would be 10/25 or 40%.

Also I suspect there is a third reason for cheekiness: namely, perception. If a person - even a Christian who should know better - perceives someone has been cheeky to him then he is liable to return in kind.

That of course is completely contrary to Christ's teaching of turning the other cheek, rejoicing when we've been falsely accused for His sake, etc.

Or as we teach our children, "two wrongs don't make a right."

[Quix]

VERY EXCELLENT POINTS, DEAR SISTER IN THE LORD.

THANKS TONS.

MUCH, MUCH APPRECIATED.