Posted on 03/18/2009 10:27:27 PM PDT by Star Traveler
The Rapture [RAPTURE CAUCUS]
What is it? Who will it affect? When is it most likely to take place?
by Dr. David R. Reagan
http://www.lamblion.com/about_staff_reagan.php
The Rapture is a glorious event which God has promised to the Church.
The promise is that someday very soon, at the blowing of a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, Jesus will appear in the sky and take up His Church, living and dead, to Heaven.
The Term
The term "Rapture" comes from a Latin word, "rapio," that means "to catch up, to snatch away, or to take out." It is, in turn, a translation of the Greek word, "harpazo."
So, "Rapture" is a Biblical word that comes right out of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In the New American Standard Version, the English phrase, "caught up," is used. The same phrase is used in the King James and New International Versions.
A Promise to the Church
The concept of the Rapture was not revealed to the Old Testament prophets because it is a promise to the New Testament Church and not to the saints of God who lived before the establishment of the Church. Jesus will return as a bridegroom for His bride, and that bride consists only of Church Age saints.
The saints of Old Testament times will be resurrected at the end of the Tribulation and not at the time of the Rapture of the Church. Daniel reveals this fact in Daniel 12:1-2 where he says that the saints of that age will be resurrected at the end of the "time of distress."
Biblical References
The first clear mention of the Rapture in Scripture is found in the words of Jesus recorded in John 14:1-4. Jesus said, "I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."
The most detailed revelation of the actual events related to the Rapture is given by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. He says that when Jesus appears, the dead in Christ (Church Age saints) will be resurrected and caught up first. Then, those of us who are alive in Christ will be translated "to meet the Lord in the air."
Paul mentions the Rapture again in 1 Corinthians 15 — his famous chapter on the resurrection of the dead: "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet" (verses 51-52).
Paul's reference here to being changed is an allusion to the fact that the saints will receive glorified bodies that will be imperishable, immortal, and perfected (1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 50-55 and Isaiah 35:5-6).
A Summary
To summarize, these passages teach that the shout of an archangel and the blowing of a trumpet will herald the sudden appearance of Jesus in the heavens (1 Thessalonians 4:16). The dead in Christ will be resurrected and rise up to meet the Lord in the sky. Then, those saints who are alive will be "caught up" to the Lord. Paul concludes his description in 1 Thessalonians 4 by encouraging his readers to "comfort one another with these words."
And truly the Rapture is a comforting thought! Consider the promises contained in the concept of the Rapture. Jesus will bring with Him the spirits of those who have died in Him (1 Thessalonians 4:14). He will resurrect their bodies in a great miracle of re-creation; He will reunite their bodies with their spirits; and He will then glorify their bodies, making them immortal. And those believers who are living will not even taste death. Rather, they will be caught up to the Lord, and in transit, they will be translated from mortal to immortal.
All my life I have heard that there are two things no one can avoid: taxes and death. Well, that is not true. According to 1 Thessalonians 4, a whole generation of believers will escape death. Taxes appear to be the only inevitability!
The Timing
The most controversial aspect of the Rapture is its timing. Some place it at the end of the Tribulation, making it one and the same event as the Second Coming. Others place it in the middle of the Tribulation. Still others believe that it will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation.
The reason for these differing viewpoints is that the exact time of the Rapture is not precisely revealed in scripture. It is only inferred. There is, therefore, room for honest differences of opinion, and lines of fellowship should certainly not be drawn over differences regarding this point, even though it is an important point.
Post-Tribulation Rapture
Those who place the timing at the end of the Tribulation usually base their argument on two parables in Matthew 13 and on the Lord's Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24.
In Matthew 24 the Lord portrays His gathering of the saints as an event that will take place "immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matthew 24:29). This certainly sounds like a post-Tribulation Rapture. But it must be kept in mind that the book of Matthew was written to the Jews, and therefore the recording of Jesus' speech by Matthew has a distinctively Jewish flavor to it as compared to Luke's record of the same speech.
Note, for example, Matthew's references to Judea and to Jewish law regarding travel on the Sabbath (Matthew 24:15-20). These are omitted in Luke's account. Instead, Luke speaks of the saints looking up for deliverance "to escape all these things" when the end time signs "begin to take place" (Luke 21:28, 36). The saints in Matthew are instructed to flee from Judea and hide. The saints in Luke are told to look up for deliverance.
It appears, therefore, that Matthew and Luke are speaking of two different sets of saints. The saints in Matthew's account are most likely Jews who receive Jesus as their Messiah during the Tribulation. The saints in Luke are those who receive Christ before the Tribulation begins. Most of those who accept the Lord during the Tribulation will be martyred (Revelation 7:9-14). Those who live to the end will be gathered by the angels of the Lord (Matthew 24:31).
The parable of the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30) and the parable of the dragnet (Matthew 13:47-50) can be explained in the same way. They refer to a separation of saints and sinners that will take place at the end of the Tribulation. The saints are those who receive Jesus as their Savior during the Tribulation (Gentile and Jew) and who live to the end of that awful period.
The Bible clearly teaches that the Rapture is an event that is separate and apart from the Second Coming. The two simply cannot be combined into one event.
Mid-Tribulation Rapture
There are variations of the mid-Tribulation Rapture concept. The most common is that the Church will be taken out in the exact middle of the Tribulation, at the point in time when the Antichrist is revealed.
This concept is based upon a statement in 1 Corinthians 15:52 which says that the Rapture will occur at the blowing of "the last trumpet." This trumpet is then identified with the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments in the book of Revelation. Since the blowing of the seventh trumpet is recorded in Revelation 11, the mid-point of the Tribulation, the conclusion is that the Rapture must occur in the middle of the Tribulation.
But there are two problems with this interpretation. The first is that the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is blown for believers whereas the seven trumpets of Revelation 8, 9 and 11 are sounded for unbelievers. The Revelation trumpets have no relevance for the Church. The last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15 is a trumpet for the righteous. The last trumpet for the unrighteous is the one described in Revelation 11.
Another problem with this interpretation is that the passage in Revelation 11 that portrays the sounding of the seventh trumpet is a "flash forward" to the end of the Tribulation. Flash forwards are very common in the book of Revelation. They occur after something terrible is described in order to assure the reader that everything is going to turn out all right when Jesus returns at the end of the Tribulation.
Thus, the eighth and ninth chapters of Revelation, which describe the horrors of the trumpet judgments, are followed immediately by a flash forward in chapter 10 that pictures the return of Jesus in victory at the end of the Tribulation. The mid-Tribulation action resumes in chapter 11 with a description of the killing of the two great prophets of God by the Antichrist. Then, to offset that terrible event, we are presented with another flash forward, beginning with verse 15. The seventh trumpet is sounded and we find ourselves propelled forward to the end of the Tribulation when "the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of our Lord."
The point is that the seventh trumpet of Revelation relates to the end of the Tribulation and not the middle. It is the same trumpet that is referred to in Matthew 24:31, the trumpet that will be blown to announce the Second Coming of Jesus. It is therefore no basis for an argument in behalf of a mid-Tribulation Rapture.
Pre-Wrath Rapture
A variation of the mid-Tribulation Rapture is the pre-wrath Rapture concept that places the Rapture at the beginning of the last quarter of the Tribulation, about five and a half years into the Tribulation.
The argument for this view is that the Church is promised protection only from the wrath of God and not the wrath of Man or of Satan. It is then argued that only the bowl judgments in the last quarter of the Tribulation (Revelation 16) represent the wrath of God.
But the argument for this view disintegrates when you consider two facts. First, it is Jesus Himself who breaks the seals that launch each of the seal judgments recorded in Revelation 6. These judgments occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. Second, the seven angels who blow the trumpets that initiate each of the trumpet judgments are given their trumpets at the throne of God (Revelation 8:2).
All the judgments of Revelation are clearly superintended by God. That is the reason we are told in Revelation 15:1 that the bowl judgments at the end of the Tribulation will finish the wrath of God, not begin His wrath.
The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
I believe the best inference of Scripture is that the Rapture will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The most important reason I believe this has to do with the issue of imminence.
Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord. We are told "to be ready" (Matthew 24:44), "to be on the alert" (Matthew 24:42), "to be dressed in readiness" (Luke 12:35), and to "keep your lamps alight" (Luke 12:35). The clear force of these persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment.
Only the pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture allows for the imminence of the Lord's appearing for His Church. When the Rapture is placed at any other point in time, the imminence of the Lord's appearing is destroyed because other prophetic events must happen first.
For example, if the Rapture is going to occur in mid-Tribulation, then why should I live looking for the Lord's appearing at any moment? I would be looking instead for an Israeli peace treaty, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the revelation of the Antichrist. Then and only then could the Lord appear.
Focus
This raises the issue of what we are to be looking for. Nowhere are believers told to watch for the appearance of the Antichrist. On the contrary, we are told to watch for Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:13 Paul says we are to live "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." Likewise, Peter urges us to "fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13). John completes the apostolic chorus by similarly urging us to "fix our hope on Him" at His appearing (1 John 3:2-3).
Only Matthew speaks of watching for the Antichrist (Matthew 24:15), but he is speaking to the Jews living in Israel in the middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Temple.
Wrath
Another argument in behalf of a pre-Tribulation Rapture has to do with the promises of God to protect the Church from His wrath. As has already been demonstrated, the book of Revelation shows that the wrath of God will be poured out during the entire period of the Tribulation.
The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from God's wrath. Romans 5:9 says that "we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus]." 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting "for His Son from heaven... who will deliver us from the wrath to come." The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 — "God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Deliverance
Some argue that God could supernaturally protect the Church during the Tribulation. Yes, He could. In fact, He promises to do just that for the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed as bond-servants at the beginning of the Tribulation (Revelation 7:1-8).
But God's promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection but one of deliverance. Jesus said we would "escape" the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:3-6). Paul says Jesus is coming to "deliver" us from God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10).
Symbolism
There are several prophetic types that seem to affirm the concept of deliverance from Tribulation.
Take Enoch for example. He was a prophet to the Gentiles who was raptured out of the world before God poured out His wrath in the great flood of Noah's time. Enoch appears to be a type of the Gentile Church that will be taken out of the world before God pours out His wrath again. If so, then Noah and his family are a type of the Jewish remnant that will be protected through the Tribulation.
Another Old Testament symbolic type which points toward a pre-Tribulation Rapture is the experience of Lot and his family. They were delivered out of Sodom and Gomorrah before those cities were destroyed.
The Apostle Peter alludes to both of these examples in his second epistle. He states that if God spared Noah and Lot, then He surely "knows how to rescue the godly from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment" (2 Peter 2:4-9).
Another beautiful prophetic type is to be found in the Jewish wedding traditions of Jesus' time. After the betrothal, the groom would return to his father's house to prepare a wedding chamber for his bride. He would return for his bride at an unexpected moment, so the bride had to be ready constantly. When he returned, he would take his bride back to his father's house to the chamber he had prepared. He and his bride would then be sealed in the chamber for seven days. When they emerged, a great wedding feast would be celebrated.
Likewise, Jesus has returned to Heaven to prepare a place for His bride, the Church. When He returns for His bride, He will take her to His Father's heavenly home. There He will remain with His bride for seven years (the duration of the Tribulation). The period will end with "the marriage supper of the Lamb" described in Revelation 19. Thus the seven days in the wedding chamber point prophetically to the seven years that Jesus and His bride will remain in Heaven during the Tribulation.
Revelation
Speaking of Revelation, the structure of that book also implies a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a symbolic sense.
The first three chapters focus on the Church. Chapter 4 begins with the door of Heaven opening and John being raptured from the Isle of Patmos to the throne of God in Heaven. The Church is not mentioned thereafter until Revelation 19:7-9 when it is portrayed as the "bride of Christ" in Heaven with Jesus celebrating the "marriage supper of the Lamb." At Revelation 19:11 the door of Heaven opens again, and Jesus emerges riding a white horse on His way to earth, followed by His Church (Revelation 19:14).
The rapture of the Apostle John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type of the Rapture of the Church. Note that it is initiated by the cry of a voice that sounds like the blowing of a trumpet (Revelation 4:1). Since the Tribulation does not begin until Revelation 6, the rapture of John in Revelation 4 appears to be a symbolic type that points to a pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.
Some counter this argument by pointing out that although the Church is not mentioned in Revelation during that book's description of the Tribulation, there is constant mention of "saints" (for example, Revelation 13:7). But that term is not used in the Bible exclusively to refer to members of the Church. Daniel uses it to refer to Old Testament believers who lived long before the Church was established (Daniel 7:18). The saints referred to in the book of Revelation are most likely those people who will be saved during the Tribulation, after the Church has been taken out of the world.
Paul's Assurance
An interesting argument in behalf of the pre-Tribulation timing of the Rapture can be found in 2 Thessalonians. The church at Thessalonica was in a turmoil because someone had written them a letter under Paul's name stating that they had missed the "gathering to the Lord" and were, in fact, living in "the day of the Lord" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2).
Paul attempted to calm them down by reminding them of his teaching that the day of the Lord would not come until after the Antichrist is revealed. He then stated that the Antichrist would not be revealed until a restraining force "is taken out of the way" (2 Thessalonians 2:3-7).
There has been much speculation as to the identity of this restraining force that Paul refers to. Some have identified it as the Holy Spirit. But it cannot be the Holy Spirit because there will be people saved during the Tribulation, and no one can be saved apart from the testimony of the Spirit (John 16:8-11 & 1 John 5:7).
Others have identified the restrainer as human government. It is true that government was ordained by God to restrain evil (Romans 13:1-4). But the governments of the world are in rebellion against God and His Son (Psalm 2), and they are therefore a contributor to the evil that characterizes the world. Furthermore, the Tribulation will not be characterized by a lack of government. Rather, it will feature the first true worldwide government (Revelation 13:7).
In my opinion that leaves only one other candidate for Paul's restrainer — and that is the Church. It is the Church that serves as the primary restrainer of evil in the world today as it proclaims the Gospel and stands for righteousness. When the Church fails in this mission, evil multiplies, as Paul graphically points out in 2 Timothy 3:1-5. Paul says that society in the end times will be characterized by chaos and despair because "men will hold to a form of religion but will deny its power." When the Church is removed from the world, all hell will literally break loose.
Escapism?
The pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture has often been condemned as "escapism." I think this criticism is unjustified. The Bible itself says that Christians are to "comfort one another" with the thought of the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:18). Is it a comfort to think of the Rapture occurring at the end of the world's worst period of war instead of at the beginning?
Regardless of when the Rapture actually occurs, we need to keep in mind that the Bible teaches that societal conditions are going to grow increasingly worse the closer we get to the Lord's return. That means Christians will suffer tribulation whether or not they go into the Great Tribulation. And that means all of us had better be preparing ourselves for unprecedented suffering and spiritual warfare.
If you are a Christian, you can do that on a daily basis by putting on "the full armor of God" (Ephesians 6:13), praying at all times in the Spirit that you will be able to stand firm against the attacks of Satan (Ephesians 6:14-18).
If you are not a Christian, your only hope is to reach out in faith and receive the free gift of God's salvation which He has provided through His Son, Jesus (John 3:16).
RE Y2K...
My husband worked on some pretty nasty conversions,
just barely getting computers “fixed” before
1/1/2000. Chuck Misler was VERY effective in
getting software engineers on the ball.
You could say the same about Bush because there
weren’t any terrorist attacks on our soil after
911.
Prevention IS the better part of valor.
Please tie it into the Rapture, if it has some relation to it. I looked and I don’t see any reference to the Rapture. Perhaps you can explain, as this is a Rapture Caucus. Thanks...
Always related to a release of the faithful.
It refers to the discussion of events occurring on YHvH's Feast days
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
Blessing of the Sun and it's third time in history on Passover.
Could April 8 2009 be Gog/Magog instead of the Rapture?
Okay, I did address that issue up above. Briefly, it comes down to two things..., one seemingly violating the doctrine of immenence, and then secondly, this is talking about a Spring Festival, when proponents of this say that those are fulfilled and only the Fall Festivals are left to fulfill. I haven’t ever seen anyone propose that these can be done, either out of order or repeated (as in the Passover).
[can’t type a lot now, doing it from a phone...]
It is also my understanding that the Roman church this is talking about a Spring Festival, when proponents of this say that those are fulfilled and only the Fall Festivals are left to fulfill. I once subscribed to that theory, Passover as the rapture will surprise many "christians"
My understanding that is a Roman church doctrine.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
does not believe in the Rapture.
however it seems to be addressed to Israel only.
as they do not celebrate Passover as Yah'shua commanded
it to be celebrated. NAsbU Luke 22:19 And when He had taken some bread
and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying,
"This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
I have some thoughts, however I do not want to violate ST's caucus.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
I still get Chuck Missler's news letter. I'm just not going to let him off the hook on that one, because I read it back then too. He was an alarmist, and dead wrong. My best to you.
How does a link to this oddity fit with the rapture caucus designation?
You said — “My understanding that is a Roman church doctrine.”
Well, I can’t tell you exactly what the Roman Catholic church is teaching in this regard, but I can assure you that the teaching from the Evangelical Prophecy teachers/preachers/pastors and supporters for the Rapture always refer to the “imminent return” of Christ (i.e., naming the Doctrine of Imminence).
Well, perhaps I spelled it wrong, all the prophecy teachers that I’ve heard or read have *always* referred to it, and point out that the Bible does not give any signs that can lead one to know when the Rapture. It’s referred to as the Doctrine of Imminence, or the imminent return of Christ, or sometimes you’ll hear that “there are no signs that will precede the Rapture...
Here are some examples. Every single teacher or preacher or pastor that I’ve ever heard even mention the Rapture, *always* mentions, right along with it, the Doctrine of Imminence...
Dr. David Reagan’s ministry website
The Bible never specifically defines the timing of the Rapture by tying it to any other event like the re-establishment of Israel or the rebuilding of the Temple. Even its proximity to the Tribulation is inferred rather than definitely stated. That’s because the Rapture is an imminent event that could occur at any moment.
[ http://www.lamblion.com/articles/articles_revelation8.php ]
—
Another one here —
RaptureReady website
Why do people say the rapture is imminent?
God’s Word clearly teaches imminence of the rapture and emphasizes that we should always be ready for that event!
“Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Mat. 24:44).
“Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch” (Mk. 13:35-37).
“Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee” (Rev. 3:3).
[ http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq380.html ]
—
Another one here —
Thomas Ice’s website, Pre-Trib.org
Why Christ Can Return At Any Moment
Look at these verses stating that Christ could return at any moment, without warning. In their specific contexts, they instruct believers to wait and look for the Lord’s coming at any moment. Thus, these passages teach the doctrine of imminence.
— 1 Corinthians 1:7-”awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,”
— 1 Corinthians 16:22-”Maranatha.” “Mar” (”Lord”), “ana” (”our”), and “tha” (”come”), meaning “our Lord, come.” The Arabic greeting implies an eager expectation.
— Philippians 3:20-”For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;”
— Philippians 4:5-”The Lord is near.”
— 1 Thessalonians 1:10-”to wait for His Son from heaven,”
— 1 Thessalonians 5:6-”so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.”
— 1Timothy 6:14-”that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,”
— Titus 2:13-”looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;”
— Hebrews 9:28-”so Christ . . . shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.”
— James 5:7-9-”Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. . . . for the coming of the Lord is at hand. . . . behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.”
— 1 Peter 1:13 -”fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
— Jude21-”waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.”
— Revelation 3:11; 22:7, 12, 20-”’I am coming quickly!’” This means that Christ could come at any moment, quickly without warning.
— Revelation 22:17, 20-”And the Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come.’”
“He who testifies to these things says, ‘Yes, I am coming quickly.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.”
[ http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=251 ]
AND..., of course, that’s one of the things to discuss on such a “Rapture” thread — just this very thing... Is the Rapture an “imminent event” and is it true what all these Bible teachers say about the Doctrine of Imminence?
You have made it patently clear that you do not believe in the Rapture,Just for the record I do believe in the Blessed Hope : the Rapture.
than why are you posting on a Rapture Caucus ?
You said — “I have some thoughts, however I do not want to violate ST’s caucus.”
—
Okay, let me say something in regards to that. We are discussing the pre-trib, mid-trib and pre-wrath Rapture here. And you’ll notice that “trib” is a part of that, in discussing the Rapture. That’s the “Tribulation”. So, the “Tribulation” is an “automatic given” in this discussion of the Rapture.
Furthermore, some of the discussion regarding the position of the Rapture, (whether it’s any one particular one of those three positions — in the “timing” of how the Tribulation plays out) — is going to require just a little bit of discussing the events surrounding the Rapture and what happens in the Tribulation — or whether something is plainly *not relevant* to the Tribulation at all, and perhaps not relevant to the Rapture at all.
So, what I’m trying to say is that the Gog/Magog war, may be relevant, if one is giving it a firm position within the Tribulation and that relates to the timing of the Rapture in regards to that Gog/Magog war.’
I’m just trying to give a little bit of leeway here to wrap it around some of the “timing” of the Rapture and where it fits into the timing of the Tribulation (since all the “positions” are “in relation to” the Tribulation).
I hope you see what I mean... :-)
It’s like, is it completely outside of the Tribulation and therefore, we may or may not see it, or maybe we will see it if we’re taking one of the other positions having to do with the Rapture... well..., I hope you get it.
Don’t turn it into a Gog/Magog thread, but it may have something to do with the timing of the Rapture...
Okay, the next part of what you were talking about... :-)
You first quoted me saying — “this is talking about a Spring Festival, when proponents of this say that those are fulfilled and only the Fall Festivals are left to fulfill.”
Then you replied and said — I once subscribed to that theory, however it seems to be addressed to Israel only.
Passover as the rapture will surprise many “christians” as they do not celebrate Passover as Yah’shua commanded it to be celebrated.
—
Okay, so if I understand right, you don’t subscribe to that idea any longer, that Jesus Christ fulfilled the “Seven Festivals” as given in the Bible (the Spring Festivals and the Fall Festivals) as representing what Christ fulfilled in His ministry on earth.
And that’s perfectly fine. I’m not complaining about that at all. I think people should know about it and be aware that it is “out there” and there are proponents to it and that the Rapture is the next item on the “Festival list” to come. At least they should be aware of it.
And furthermore, even though I’m not completely sold on the idea and how it’s presented, it is intriguing and it does “make sense”. By that, I mean, I can understand how these people “put it together” and how they represent it. It “all fits” according to what they say.
SO..., what I would ask — is if you don’t subscribe to this “presentation” — exactly what kind of thing are you presenting that you do subscribe to. I don’t understand it and haven’t seen it presented. Like I said, even if I don’t fully buy into this other idea — I can at least understand how they put it all together and it makes sense.
I don’t have any kind of “framework” that you seem to be presenting (whatever it is). Perhaps you could present the framework for what you’re saying and how it fits into the timing of the Rapture (of course, “timing” in a general sense, because we cannot know the exact time, as the Bible says that very explicitly...).
These other people who propose the Spring Festivals and Fall Festivals as representing the First and Second coming of Christ, do a good job of presenting the whole picture and helping you understand how it all fits together, whether you believe it or not. And that’s what I would be asking for — the “complete picture” of what you’re saying, in regards to how it fits in with the Rapture and/or the general timing of it.
—
For others, I will post a shortened version of the Festivals of the Lord, and how it fits together. I did post this very thing about six or seven years ago, on Free Republic. If I can find that thread, I’ll refer to it. It was fairly complete.
Thanks XeniaSt...
As do I. Sadly, the RM has allowed an ill-fitting caucus label to be invented.
But I was only asking a question as to what your particular link had to do with the subject at hand. I see no reference to the rapture there.
“topcat54” you were saying to “XeniaSt” — But I was only asking a question as to what your particular link had to do with the subject at hand. I see no reference to the rapture there.
—
I’m trusting that XeniaSt is going to let us (the readers) know. If there is something there, that pertains to the Rapture (and I believe that’s the answer I got back), then I would like to hear about it. And I would like to see that “framework” — in the same sense and the same way that those other proponents of the “Seven Festivals of the Messiah” give their framework for what they present. I would like to “see the picture” that is being presented in relation to the Rapture...
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And you also said, topcat54 — As do I. Sadly, the RM has allowed an ill-fitting caucus label to be invented.
—
Ummm..., I can’t say that it’s an ill-fitting caucus label. I agree with the designation of it being for pre-trib, mid-trib and pre-wrath. That fits the idea of the commonality of all these people and their positions.
They all have a common identity and common position, even if they are slightly different in timing. They all fit a “major position” of the Church, in regards to the Rapture, and thus — they should all be allowed to discuss this — within this group and amongst themselves. It’s very helpful for these people to come together and not be hassled about the “very concept” of the Rapture being viable, in the context that they support.
The obvious problem is that by using the generic term "rapture" to refer to but one version of the "rapture" you make it appear as if the rest of us do not believe in the "rapture" at all. That is plainly not true. I believe that Christ will return for His people, will raise the dead and transform the living, catching them up to be with Him at His appearing, just as Paul says in 1 Thess. 4:16-18.
Now, if you had labeled the thread [pre-Second Coming Rapture Caucus] or [Dispensational Caucus] or something similar, that would make it clear that the difference is the timing of the rapture not the fact of the rapture as the blessed hope of the believer.
Okay, I said earlier — “For others, I will post a shortened version of the Festivals of the Lord, and how it fits together. I did post this very thing about six or seven years ago, on Free Republic. If I can find that thread, I’ll refer to it. It was fairly complete.
The Seven Festivals Of The Messiah
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a39e032ca390d.htm
Posted on 10/08/2000 01:39:38 PDT by Star Traveler
As you can see, I posted it on October 8, 2000 — boy that was a long time ago... LOL...
BUT, be aware, the link doesn’t work for me about 6 times out of 7. Most of the time I come up with a error message and/or a blank page. But, if I keep “reloading” the page, it will finally come up, sooner or later.
If it does finally “come up” for you — then download the entire page on your computer, in case you can’t get back to it again. Sorry, but apparently really old threads don’t load well...
I may try reposting it sometime. in its own thread again.
You were saying — “Now, if you had labeled the thread [pre-Second Coming Rapture Caucus] or [Dispensational Caucus] or something similar, that would make it clear that the difference is the timing of the rapture not the fact of the rapture as the blessed hope of the believer.”
—
Well, I will be labeling it clearly, in any future threads, with the words, as requested by the Religion Moderator — pre-trib, mid-trib and pre-wrath — and bolded — in my initial posting of the thread (per post #80).
And, I would say that, as a “group” these people (in those categories) are all very similar and common together — as opposed to “post-trib”..., which is why that dictionary definition came up the way he indicated above (per post #78)... it makes sense, really...
I hope you do understand the “commonality” that is there, among this particular group and why they would want to talk together, without having to always get into a hassle about something outside of what they really would like to discuss...
And the purpose of the post I’m replying to was obviously to demonstrate pure hearted 100% total compliance with the spirit and letter of the Caucus designation
vs
causing trouble on a caucus thread one “just happened” to disagree with.
Impressive.
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