Posted on 02/24/2009 10:10:12 AM PST by topcat54
Calvary Chapel of Chino California held “ The Southern California Prophecy Conference” last week (Feb. 20–22, 2009). I wonder if those who came to hear speakers like Tim LaHaye, Mark Hitchcock, Paul McGuire, David Hocking, David Reagan, and Ed Hindson were aware that Chuck Smith, the founder of the Calvary Chapel network of churches, made some very definite predictions about when the “rapture” was going to take place.
While cleaning up my office, I came across a cassette tape of a sermon Chuck Smith preached on December 31, 1979. He told his very accepting audience on that day that the rapture would take place in 1981. The former Soviet Republic going into Afghanistan in August of 1978 was the prelude to what Smith considered to be a full-force invasion of the Middle East. It would not be long before “Russia” would invade Israel, Smith told his audience. All of this was said to have been “predicted” by Ezekiel 2600 years ago.
Smith went on to claim in his end-of-the-year message of 30 years ago that because of ozone depletion Revelation 16:8 would be fulfilled during the soon-coming Great Tribulation: “And the fourth angel poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given to it to scorch men with fire.” According to Smith, Halley’s Comet would pass near the earth in 1986 and would wreck atmospheric havoc for those left behind as debris from its million-mile tail pummeled the earth. Halley’s Comet did appear in 1986 with no damage done to our planet. (A similar prelude to the end had been predicted based on the so-called Jupiter Effect.[1]) ...
(Excerpt) Read more at americanvision.org ...
Heb 8:10-11 still are not performed. Neither with Israel nor with the Church.
When somebody slips and replaces Israel with the Church, insisting all the Prophecy of Heb 8:10-11 has been fulfilled, then the Replacement Theologians need to ask themselves, why are they continuing to teach, if His Word is already written in their hearts and minds?
It's also very convenient for Replacement Theologians to forget all the cursings they should inherit along with the blessings they believe they have gained by replacing Israel.
You are correct. There are multiple verses in the Bible pointing directly to such doctrine.
We both agree that during the Church Age all who have faith in Christ have salvation, Jew and Gentile alike. Scripture goes further to describe a future time when God the Holy Spirit does not indwell the believer. That time is not in the Church Age.
Except there were explicit contracts made by God regarding Israel explicitly. God didn't promise Moses He would make Him God the Son, but He did promise a land, a seed, and a blessing to Abraham, not merely spiritualizing the promises made.
Rev 7:1-14 leaves little doubt as to the identity of the 144,000. They are from Israel, a remnant. They aren’t Gentiles. They come out of the Great Tribulation.
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Answering remotely candidly and accurately
would be making things pointedly personal.
When somebody slips and replaces Israel with the Church, insisting all the Prophecy of Heb 8:10-11 has been fulfilled, then the Replacement Theologians need to ask themselves, why are they continuing to teach, if His Word is already written in their hearts and minds?
It's also very convenient for Replacement Theologians to forget all the cursings they should inherit along with the blessings they believe they have gained by replacing Israel.
ITTM! [INDEED-TO-THE-MAX!]
I'd shared with a dear prophetic saint in Texas some of the REPLACEMENTARIAN hogwash hereon. Her reply was: "His head is both in the sand of non-reality and in the heights of intellectual arrogance. Only prayer for an humbling and for teachability will bring about a change in attitude. In the meantime, I'd advise that you not throw pearls before swine. Not that he is a pig but his blatant unbelief in Scripture is."
Sounds like an apt analysis, to me.
I've posted recently hereon some excerpts from Keith Intrater's FROM IRAQ TO ARMAGEDDON which showed quite clearly how the 7,000 Jewish Christians in Israel now are similar to the 7,000 remnant Believers not bowing to Baal of Elijah's time.
That's still far from up to the 144,000 that will be fierce evangelists for their TRUE MESSIAH in the END TIMES . . . evidently during the Great Tribulation.
However, I think Intrater makes several good points apropos to this thread. I'll see if I can find those comments.
Thanks for your excellent and very BIBLICAL posts. It's great to read BIBLICAL posts on such threads amidst all the REPLACEMENTARIAN hogwash, chaff, disinformation, deceptions etc.
Ahhhhh,
I see that my post was on this thread. #127. I see some key points were predictably ignored by the Bible and Israel trashers.
I think I'll expound on them a bit here. Not, per se, for the Bible & Israel trashing Replacementarians but for the lurkers who might be reading too quickly to notice some of the trashers' absurdities. It will give me a chance to clear up a host of typos, too.
Have learned on FR that what I thought was very basic OBVIOUS Scripture . . . some folks would consider otherwise.
The absurd notion that most of the END TIMES prophecies were fulfilled in 70AD etc. is just mind bogglingly UNBIBLICAL-TO-THE-MAX.
It's hard for me to conceive that there are even folks who dare to think of themselves as "Christians" who would dare to imagine that God would fail to fulfill even the tiniest of His promises to Israel literally.
Am reading an interesting book:
FROM IRAQ TO ARMAGEDDON: The Final Showdown Approaches
by Keith Intrater.
He notes . . .
---------------------------------------------
GOD IS DECLARING THROUGH PAUL--HOW MUCH MORE RICHES WILL COME FROM THEIR BEING GRAFTED BACK IN!
Yet REPLACEMENTARIANS ARE BARRING THE DOOR with sharp staves and with seemingly self-righteous haughtiness INSISTING that Israel's day is over WHEN GOD CLEARLY IS INSISTING WHOLESALE OTHERWISE.
INDEED--RESURRECTION LIFE FROM THE DEAD! I haven't paid much attention to this sentence in many readings of it--over the whole of my life. However, it's kind of profound. PAUL IS HERE LINKING RESURRECTION LIFE WITH ISRAEL'S BEING GRAFTED BACK INTO THE TRUE VINE! What a mystery--since it's not clarified. I guess that makes it easier for the REPLACEMENTARIANS TO TRASH AND FLUSH SCRIPTURE.
I guess since REPLACEMENTARIANS DIDN'T WRITE SCRIPTURE, they feel it's their right to trash it??? And they still consider themselves "Christians?" Amazing.
In the meantime, we have a paradoxical position toward the Jewish people who have not yet received the Lord. It is part negative and part positive.
OBVIOUSLY the REPLACEMENTARIANS have horribly RIPPED that verse right out of their pseudo-Bibles. Gotta trash & flush that sentence! AT THE VERY LEAST they have to mangle and rationalize it away--rationalize it away TO THE MAX! Maybe their rationalizers are the only parts of their synapses still pseudo-functioning.
OF COURSE IT'S FOR THE SAKE OF THE FATHERS! GOD HAS MADE THAT CLEAR FROM ABRAHAM ON!
Oh, right . . . only God's promises that the REPLACEMENTARIANS CONSTRUE TO APPLY TO THEM are to be faithfully fulfilled. Raaaggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhttttttt! /sar
. . .
The third group is the Messianic Jews, those who are Israeli citizens, Jewish and believers in Yeshua. This group currently numbers around seven thousand. It is this group that I am primarily identified with. I believe they have a key role to play in the Kingdom of God.
. . .
p92
We know that Paul's answer to the question whether the prophetic purposes of Israel have been made void is "CERTAINLY NOT! (See Rom 11:1). But how could the destiny of Israel not be canceled, considering the rejection of the Messiah and the punishment from God? Here Paul's answer is also clear: The Remnant.
Throughout history there was always a minority of true believers within the greater nation of Israel. Despite the sins of the nation, that believing remnant carried within it (in seed form) THE DIVINE DESTINY OF THE NATION.
Every nation, in fact, has a prophetic calling from God. That calling is not seen in the overall population of the nation, but in the community of true believers found within the nation. The prophetic calling of the United States is not seen in the motion pictures from Hollywood. That of South Africa is not seen in the racial problems; of Germany, not in Nazism; of Russia, not in communism, etc. The destiny of a nation and its covenant with God are found within the remnant of believers within the nation.
The same is true in Israel. The source of its destiny is not in Tel Aviv discos, nor political parties, nor rabbinic councils. It is in Yeshua, and in the community of citizens that believe in Him. If one wants to understand the destiny of Israel, he must look not to the larger unbelieving population of Israel, but to the core community of believers within the nation. Gentile Christians become confused by not making this distinction. Either they reject God's purposes for Israel altogether, or they try to make something overly spiritual of Israel's pioneers and politicians.
I THINK THIS IS A VERY INTERESTING AND AT LEAST MOSTLY ACCURATE KEY POINT OF INTRATER'S.
Certainly it IS true that God's focus has tended to be throughout history on those who loved Him, believed in Him, walked with Him.
In Israel, we currently have folks believing in GOD ALMIGHTY of two tracks. The traditional Jewish track and those already believing in Christ as their Messiah.
It is certainly plausible to me that God will take up the Christian Messianic Jews as His sole focus in these end times in terms of fulfilling HIS PROMISES to Abraham. IF SO, THE REPLACEMENTARIANS and their rants are worse than smelly burps. Not only are they hollow and UNBiblical, they are absurd to the max. We are, after all, talking about CHRISTIAN JEWS! Sheesh!
Nevertheless, to me, it is ALSO PLAUSIBLE that God will continue to fulfill HIS WORD about HE THAT SEEKS ME SHALL FIND ME--in terms of the honest Torah believing Jews truly seeking God Almighty and their true Messiah--to at some point, by God's miracle WHO PLACED THE BLINDERS ON THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE--TO REMOVE THE BLINDERS SO THAT THEY, TOO, WILL SEE THEIR TRUE MESSIAH AS THEIR TRUE MESSIAH AND OWN HIM AS THEIR TRUE MESSIAH--IN GOD'S WAY--IN GOD'S TIME--IN THESE END TIMES--AS SCRIPTURE HAS CLEARLY INDICATED WILL BE THE CASE--REGARDLESS OF REPLACEMENTARIAN TRASHING OF SUCH SCRIPTURES. HEAVEN AND EARTH WILL PASS AWAY BUT NOT THE TINIEST PUNCTUATION MARK OF SCRIPTURE--GOD'S WORD--REGARDLESS of the arrogance of the REPLACEMENTARIANS.
It would be a small and very Biblical thing for God to do.
Of course, it wouldn't fit III Sylvester chapter 6 verse 66. I don't think God cares about that, in the least.
The way to have a balanced theology concerning Israel and its destiny is to consider the Messianic Jewish community within Israel. Paul wrote [p93] that the way to understand God's plan for Israel was TO COMPARE THE FAITHFUL REMNANT IN THE TIME OF ELIJAH TO THE MESSIANIC JEWISH COMMUNITY OF HIS DAY.
In Elijah's time, in Paul's time, and EVEN SO AT THIS PRESENT TIME--there was a remnant and there still is a remnant. AND HOW MANY ARE IN THAT REMNANT? SEVEN THOUSAND.
In the time of Elijah, there was a remnant of seven thousand believers within Israel who carried with them the destiny of the nation. Today there is also a remnant within Israel numbering about seven thousand. This remnant is part of bringing us to a new 'age of Elijah' in our generation. God had to point out to Elijah the importance of the several thousand faithful ones. The revelation of the remnant gave him hope, faith, and a better understanding of God's purpose. I believe God is trying to point out the importance of the Messianic remnant within Israel today as well.
p95
The prophetic call for the community of faith to recognize the place of Israel is not a racist preference for the Jewish people, bu rather a SUBMISSION TO THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD. ,FONT COLOR=NAVY> It is a recognition of Jerusalem as the seat of HIS earthly authority and a recognition of Yeshua as King of the Jews.
I believe Intrater is quite right. BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD.
It is even somewhat conceivable that his Biblical insights COULD be a path or some fair-minded REPLACEMENTARIAN Calvinsts to acquire a BIBLICAL understanding of prophecy in our era. . . . perhaps even in the nick of time, at the rate Biblical prophecy is being increasingly fulfilled.
I think Intrater makes many valid and interesting points about the Jewish body of Messianic believers currently in Israel. And, God may well focus entirely on them--multiplying them into the 144,000--12,000 INDIVIDUALS DESCENDED from every ORIGINAL PATRIARCH--IT IS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR THAT GOD WILL CERTAINLY USE SUCH DESCENDANTS IN COMPRISING THE 144,000. Whether He will do it by multiplying the current 7,000 Messianic Jewish believers INTO that 144,000 remains to be seen. He may well. He might well do it through any number of other means, as well.
And I would imagine that His thought to the PROTESTING REPLACEMENTARIANS about their protesting GOD ALMIGHTY'S DOING SO--is that there are some Jordan river rocks they could go suck on since they have obviously lost their passifiers.
Should be interesting to watch the
mental gymnastics;
the convoluted Alice-in-Wonderland theological contortions;
the BIBLE MANGLING;
the obsessive Olympic class rationalizing;
the obsessive Olympic class irrationality;
the willful blindness and chronic obtuseness
that the REPLACEMENTARIANS WILL HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE to get around that one key point. Thanks!
Hey Quix, thanks for the ping, I will read this later and think about what you’re saying. God bless you, FRiend.
THANKS THANKS.
YOU TOO!
Blessings on you and yours.shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
bflr = bump for later reading
LIKEWISE.
THANKS MUCH FOR YOUR KIND REPLY.
THANKS FOR YOUR KIND REPLY.
If God has "replaced" Israel with the Church than He is a liar. If God can break His word to the Jews than what is keeping Him from breaking His word to the the Church? He is VERY specific who is His chosen nation, chosen for a specific purpose. He is also very specific that ALL can be saved through the Jewish Messiah, and enter into covenant with Him.
God is a covenant keeping God that is the same today, yesterday and forever. I am bewildered that so many would choose to believe that God reneges on His promises to His people. God is FAITHFUL to complete ALL that He has promised.
Yes. Reformed theology has many bankrupt accounts.
It’s not totally bankrupt, just parts of the whole are.
If God has "replaced" Israel with the Church than He is a liar. If God can break His word to the Jews than what is keeping Him from breaking His word to the the Church? He is VERY specific who is His chosen nation, chosen for a specific purpose. He is also very specific that ALL can be saved through the Jewish Messiah, and enter into covenant with Him.
God is a covenant keeping God that is the same today, yesterday and forever. I am bewildered that so many would choose to believe that God reneges on His promises to His people. God is FAITHFUL to complete ALL that He has promised.
INDEED TO THE MAX.
However, human nature is sooooooooooooo addicted to rationalizing. We seem quite able to rationalize all kinds of horrible stuff quite away . . . or even evil into good.
But this sure is a mind-boggling example. There are soooooooooooooooo many redundant redundant again again Scriptures about HIS UTTER FAITHFULNESS TO ABRAHAM AND ABRAHM'S SEED--IT'S MORE THAN IRON CLAD, TO ME.
I also think the PURPOSE is lost--the PURPOSE OF HIS PROMISES TO ABRAHAM.
His promises to Abraham are only partially a kind of thanks to Abraham as GOD'S FRIEND.
THEY ARE PRIMARILY FOR GOD TO DISPLAY HIS GLORY THROUGH HIS FAITHFULNESS TO HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE.
And if REPLACEMENTARIANS THINK that God is going to abandon displaying HIS GLORY through the seed of Abraham--they really are clueless . . . and evidently willfully so.
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