What's So Great about Catholicism? (here is the top 10)

Inside Catholic ^ | January 21, 2009 | H. W. Crocker III

[Just mythoughts]

Where can I find the Scripture saying any church has the promise of infallibility?

There are 7 churches named and described what their teaching are.... That is how I can identify what is approved by Christ own WORDS...

Seee now IF the WORD is GOD from the Beginning, and Christ said I have foretold you alllllll things that does not tell me there is any infallibility given to a building or a promoted leader or any flesh man.

[LearnsFromMistakes]

I meant His plan of redemption.

I believe the church is His bride, not the Church. But I don’t want to get into anything over capital letters...I just wanted to point out the the Catholic Church was not more glorious than God Himself...and I didn’t expect any disagreement. Wow.

[Petronski]

Where does Scripture say we must do only what is described in Scripture and not what is not described in Scripture?

[hosepipe]

[ Where does Scripture say we must do only what is described in Scripture and not what is not described in Scripture? ]

Jesus does not forbid denominations(sheep pens)...

[bdeaner]

I just wanted to point out the the Catholic Church was not more glorious than God Himself...and I didn’t expect any disagreement. Wow.

And I agreed with that point. So why the "wow"?

[thefrankbaum]

What is your conception of a being(God) that can re-model the earth, and create universes, galaxy and solar systems?.. Invent and create other creatures?.. What is he/it?.. Who is he/it?... My thought is whatever conception "you"(or I) have/has misses the mark.. of what we are dealing with..(ICor 2;9)

My conception? Christ. I don't pretend to understand Him more than He has revealed, but He has revealed quite a bit.

People get lots if "ideas" and make doctrines.. codify them and form denominations of followers(sheep pens).. (John ch10).. WHO then, is correct/accurate?.. If any are?..

There cannot be multiple truths; there is only Truth, and doctrine is either in accord with Truth or not. Obviously, I believe the Church is correct.

That "IS" why we need the Holy Spirit.. and WHY? Jesus left the Holy Spirit in charge of this planet..

I agree. But how do you discern where the Holy Spirit is?

Because people get strange ideas and "conceive" of strange rites and ceremony's(sacraments)

You mean strange rites and ceremonies like Passover and Baptism?

.. and develop doctrines..

Again, there is only Truth, and that Truth is Christ. Doctrines which reflect Truth are doctrines which reflect Christ.

The Jews did/and do as christians did/and do.. People are not too smart as I see it.. Thats WHY?

So, as you see it, people are not smart. I don't quite follow.

Jesus did not forbid denominations even though he no doubt KNEW they would be some(denominations).. (being GOD)..

His prayer was "that they may all be one." Seems like He didn't want denominations.

People gather together in sheep pens as holding "tanks".. UNTIL they can be called out of them.. IF they will come.. (as John ch 10 intones)..

John 10 talks about one flock, one Shepard. Where are you getting "holding tanks?"

[Petronski]

Jesus does not forbid denominations(sheep pens)...

That's false, but the protestants formed them anyway.

[Petronski]

I believe the church is His bride, not the Church.

A distinction without a difference.

[hosepipe]

[ There cannot be multiple truths;
there is only Truth, and doctrine is either in accord with Truth or not.
Obviously, I believe the Church is correct. ]

Which "church"(denomination)...

[ I agree. But how do you discern where the Holy Spirit is? ]

The HS is looking over your shoulder as you type the next post..

[ You mean strange rites and ceremonies like Passover and Baptism? ]

Yes, and many others.. and their variations..
Presence of the Holy Spirit trumps ceremony and sacrament..

[ So, as you see it, people are not smart. I don't quite follow. ]

Its the "observer problem".. People see "things" quite differently..
Depending on the vantage point..

[ His prayer was "that they may all be one." Seems like He didn't want denominations. ]

The truth is there is only one church/body of christ/ bride of christ..
Denominations are holding pens.. the pasture w/the shepard is outside
of the sheep pens (John ch 10).. Eklesia(church) are "those called out of"..
Called out of what?.. Now there is the question/dilemma.. (for some)

(Some people must do some research on the word Eklesia..)

[ John 10 talks about one flock, one Shepard. Where are you getting "holding tanks?" ]

I just answered that.. above..

[Petronski]

Frank, Frank, Frank . . . don’t you get it?

John 10 is the answer to everything.

EVERYTHING.

[annalex]

Where can I find the Scripture saying any church has the promise of infallibility?

In Matthew 16:18 Christ says that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against" the Church; in 2 Timothy 3:15 she is called "pillar and ground of truth"; in Ephesians 5 St. Paul teaches that Christ gave himself up for the Church so that "he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life: that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle, or any; such thing; but that it should be holy, and without blemish".

[hosepipe]

[ That's false, but the protestants formed them anyway. ]

The roman catholic church is a denomination(sheep pen)..
UNLESS.. the RCC is the church and any other church IS NOT..

Millers church history shows (googleable).. that..
the RCC is a denomination.. as fully as any other denomination is a denomination..

[hosepipe]

[ John 10 is the answer to everything. EVERYTHING. ]

Not everthing.... just some things..
Especially "things" that some refuse to "FACE/see/admit"..
The odors of the sheep pen some have learned to love..

[LearnsFromMistakes]

I didn’t understand your comment to be an agreement. I still don’t quite see it, but that is fine. I didn’t mean to offend. I thought that I pointed out that there were ‘things’ more glorious than the Catholic Church, and understood your comment to disagree with that declaration.

[bdeaner]

The Bible itself calls the Church and not the Bible the "pillar and ground of the truth." See for yourself in 1 Timothy 3:15, where we see that not the Bible, but the Church--that is, the living community of believers founded upon St. Peter and the Apostles and headed by their successors--called "the pillar and ground of the truth." Of course, this passage is not meant in any way to diminish the importance of the Bible, but it IS intended to show that Jesus Christ did establish an authoritative teaching Church which was commissioned to teach "all nations" (Matt. 28:19).

Elsewhere, this same Church received Christ's promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Matt. 16:18), that He would always be with it (Matt. 28:20), and that He would give it the Holy Spirit to teach it all truth (John 16:13). To the visible head of His Church, St. Peter, Our Lord said: "And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and, whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven" (Matt. 16:19).

It is plainly evident from these passages that Our Lord emphasized the authority of His Church and the role it would have in safeguarding and defining the Deposit of Faith.

It is also evident from these passages that this same Church would be infallible, for if at any time in its history it would definitively teach error to the Church as a whole in matters of faith or morals--even temporarily--it would cease being this "pillar and ground of truth." Since a "ground" or foundation by its very nature is meant to be a permanent support, and since the above-mentioned passages do not allow for the possibility of the Church ever definitively teaching doctrinal or moral error, the only plausible conclusion is that Our Lord was very deliberate in establishing His Church and that He was refering to its infallibility when He called it the "pillar and ground of the truth."

The Protestant, however, has a dilemma here by asserting the bible to be the sole rule of faith for believers. In what capacity, then, is the Churh the "pillar and ground of the truth" if it is not to serve as an infallible authority established by Christ? How can the Church be this "pillar and ground" if it has no tangible, practical ability to serve as an authority in the life of a Christian? The Protestant would effectively deny that the Chruch is the "pillar and ground of the truth" by denying that the Church has the authority to teach. No wonder Protestantism has a history of doctrinal vacillations and changes, and no surprise that no two denominations completely agree--even on major doctrinal changes. Such shifting and changing could not possibly be considered a foundation or "ground of the truth." For that ground, you need to cross the Tiber.

[bdeaner]

My objection was that you seemed to imply that the Catholic Church itself believes it is more glorious than God Himself — and that of course would be a grave error and misinterpretation.

[Petronski]

Miller is wrong.

[LearnsFromMistakes]

The first line of the article said exactly that - nothing could be more glorious than the Catholic Church. My first post disagreed with the first line of the article.

Or, at least, that is what I intended to do. My understanding of Catholic theology is not that the Church considers itself more glorious than God. I was just questioning line 1 of the article. And, by association, the rest of the article...

Note to self: Must re-re-re-read my comments more closely, and make sure that they are more clear...

[hosepipe]

[ Miller is wrong. ]

How is Millers(church history) wrong?...

[thefrankbaum]

Yes, and many others.. and their variations..
Presence of the Holy Spirit trumps ceremony and sacrament..

If you can't see the justification for Baptism, we cannot continue this conversation. You apparently recognize no authority but your own.