Posted on 12/27/2008 3:43:47 PM PST by NYer
My children see a priest at least weekly. The entire point is that he is not cloistered.
I think you need to read what you wrote - the believers are the BODY of Christ, and that includes the Protestants, too. It’s not just the Catholics. It is not the Church. It is the believers.
Please see 1 Corinthians 12:12-14:
12: For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13: For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14: For the body is not one member, but many.
The body is not the Church. The body is the believers of Christ. Jew or Gentile, bonded or free, Protestant or Catholic.
Your doctrine is set by men - my doctrine is set by men. It is our listening to the Holy Spirit that guides us in the doctrines, and hopefully those of who set the doctrines. Our doctrines are fallible.
I understand that for Catholic doctrine, the phrase “the Church” means not just the believers in Christ, but those specifically who are members of the Catholic Church. This is doctrine of the Catholic Church as set in the Catechism (which I had to translate from the original Latin, back in high school).
Inherent (and IMHO errant) in that statement of doctrine is that any believer who is NOT a member of the Catholic Church cannot be a member of the body of Christ. The institution of the Catholic Church has become the arbiter of who can be in the Body of Christ, and that is a serious impediment to men relating to God.
You wrote:
“I think you need to read what you wrote - the believers are the BODY of Christ, and that includes the Protestants, too.”
No. You are making a common mistake. I NEVER include those who believe in heresy as in the Body. When Christ create the Body she only contained orthodox believers. There were no Protestants and would be no Protestants for another 1500 years. When the NT speaks of all believers being in the Church that must be understood as reflective of a time when there were no Protestants.
“It’s not just the Catholics. It is not the Church. It is the believers.”
The Catholic Church is the Church and always has been and always will be. Protestants didn’t come along until well after 1500.
“Please see 1 Corinthians 12:12-14:”
Notice how Paul took it for granted that the believers would be united in baptism? And yet there are Protestants like Quakers who don’t even baptize! Orthodox believers know baptism is a sacrament while most Protestants consider it a nice ceremony and little more. Sorry, but 1 Corinthians is in no way speaking up for your distorted Protestant beliefs which only came into existence sometime after 1500.
“The body is not the Church. The body is the believers of Christ. Jew or Gentile, bonded or free, Protestant or Catholic.”
Nope. The Body is the Church and the Church is the Catholic Church. How you can deny that the Church is the body when Colossians 1:24 says “... the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church” is beyond me. You are directly contradicting God’s word. Did you even know that?
“Your doctrine is set by men - my doctrine is set by men.”
No. My doctrine is set by God and His Church. You get your doctrine from men and where they get it from is anybody’s guess.
“It is our listening to the Holy Spirit that guides us in the doctrines, and hopefully those of who set the doctrines. Our doctrines are fallible.”
No. First, I have no doctrines of my own. YOU have fallible doctrines. I have only God’s doctrines given to us through the Church. They are infallible.
“I understand that for Catholic doctrine, the phrase “the Church” means not just the believers in Christ, but those specifically who are members of the Catholic Church. This is doctrine of the Catholic Church as set in the Catechism (which I had to translate from the original Latin, back in high school).”
I don’t care what you used to do. If you say you understand Catholic doctrine, then why are you misrepresenting it?
“Inherent (and IMHO errant) in that statement of doctrine is that any believer who is NOT a member of the Catholic Church cannot be a member of the body of Christ.”
Your opinions are errant. Catholic teachings are not. Someone cannot be a member of the Body and not a member of the Body at the same time. Choose.
“The institution of the Catholic Church has become the arbiter of who can be in the Body of Christ, and that is a serious impediment to men relating to God.”
Nope. The exact opposite. The Church was sent by God to teach the truth to all the world under the guidance and support of the Holy Spirit. The Church is necessary exactly to decide issues such as who is in the Church and who is not. Strange how you think the Church is an impediment to relating to God when that same Church - under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit - wrote the scriptures and defined the canon (the same NT canon you probably use too!). Was the Church an impediment then?
Wasn’t St Augustine married?
No. You are making a common mistake. I NEVER include those who believe in heresy as in the Body.
So Protestants are heretics, and cannot be members of the Body of Christ. How wonderfully Christian of you!
Brother, I guess there's nothing more to say. I'll pray that you'll recognize that your Church and its doctrine have become your god. When an institution of men declares who can and who cannot be saved, that should send any reader of the Bible running.
Good night.
You wrote:
“Wasn’t St Augustine married?”
Never.
He was shacked up and had a son, however, before his conversion.
Read his Confession.
You wrote:
“So Protestants are heretics, and cannot be members of the Body of Christ. How wonderfully Christian of you!”
Being truthful is not inconsistent with being Christian, nor is telling the truth uncharitable just because it seems to hurt someone’s feelings.
By the way, no, Protestants can not just be called heretics. They have never been reproved by proper authority. They believe in heresies, however, and are outside the Body of Christ.
“Brother, I guess there’s nothing more to say. I’ll pray that you’ll recognize that your Church and its doctrine have become your god.”
Why pray that someone comes to believe something that he cannot believe for it is an impossibility? God is my God. I need no other. He sent the Church. Your opinions are your god.
“When an institution of men declares who can and who cannot be saved, that should send any reader of the Bible running.”
I never said anything about someone being saved or unsaved. There you go again creating strawmen. Why can’t you just be honest and actually deal with what is written to you? Is it that hard for you?
Actually the Bride is the body of Christ. Do you have a scriptural reference saying that the Holy Spirit is the bride?
Dear PugetSound,
The Catholic Church is misunderstood precisely because it is the one Church that follows Christ’s words to the letter. He said we must eat His body and drink His blood. Many fell away because they couldn’t believe this. Only the Catholic Church believes, and has always believed, this.
He said Peter was the rock He would build his Church on and gave him the power to loose or hold things in heaven. Only the Catholic Church believes, and has always believed, this.
He promised the Holy Spirit would always be with His Church and guide it and that it would never end. Only the Catholic Church has roots all the way back to Christ and his Apostles. All others are branches from the main trunk of Catholicism.
There is so much beauty and wonder and mystery and joy in Catholicism. Please don’t be angry at those who can’t help but want to share it with you. If you used to translate the Catechism as a child, I suspect you know what I am talking about and have some experience with our Church. If the Catholic Church, through its imperfect representatives, has hurt you, I humbly ask you to forgive and not hold the Church responsible for its flawed members. I invite you to re-examine the Catholic Church. I encourage you to read Scott Hahn or Tim Staples. They examined Catholicism from a Protestant perspective and found truth and beauty there.
Finally, if you pay attention, you will see that the Catholic Church is loathe to pass judgment on anyone. They leave it to God. That is why Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, and the like continue to call themselves Catholics; because the Church itself has not yet condemned them.
In short, Catholics believe they have the fullness, or fullest understanding, of the faith Christ wanted from us. We don’t know who is or is not saved. Christ will judge all in their varying levels of understanding. We just have to tell you that we believe we have the most complete, whole, and enduring form of Christianity: the one, holy, apostolic and catholic faith! Please give the Church a fair, adult examination and I think you will find much to appreciate.
If not, I hope you will at least forgive past hurts. Unfinished business is like mud in your wings. I say this as someone who has been deeply hurt by poor leaders in our Church. What matters is the teaching, dogma, and good news the Catholic Church is founded upon.
Amen”.Do you have a scriptural reference saying that the Holy Spirit is the bride?”God bless you guitarplayer1953.Will get back to you:)
Actually that is exactly true. The Catholic Church takes the words of Christ literally. The Eucharist is His body and blood and we gnaw it. He used the word gnaw. When many of His followers couldn’t stomach that teaching, they left, and He let them go— because He meant exactly that.
Again, there are imperfect people in every church, Clemenza, but the dogma of the Catholic Church follows Christ’s words to the letter. And that’s no laughing matter.
Did you know that for the first 200 years, the Catholic Church did not believe in transubstantiation? That it was symbolic?
Did you know that Jews and Gentiles were accepted into the Body of Christ?
Did you know that Jesus said it was by Faith and Faith alone that we are saved? The actions of doctrine are not Biblical?
I’m aware of Catholic doctrine - I was raised Catholic for 12 years, and have family who are Catholic (including a priest and a director Christian Education and RCIA director at a local parish).
Catholic doctrine has several issues with scripture, including marriage of priests, transubstantiation (brought up above), baptism of children, and others. I’m willing to consider those small doctrinal issues and worship together; apparently many of you Catholics consider us heretical or unsuitable to be in the Body of Christ, no matter what the Scriptures actually say...
Didn’t mean to be a wiseguy. Its just that the RCC (which I was a member of until I was in my mid-20s) has over the centuries incorporated the pre-Christian traditions of those it has converted, and adulterated the ecclesiastical bodies well beyond what is specified in the scripture (which is the ONLY source we have for information on the early Christian community).
“Finally, if you pay attention, you will see that the Catholic Church is loathe to pass judgment on anyone. They leave it to God. That is why Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, and the like continue to call themselves Catholics; because the Church itself has not yet condemned them.”
As far as I see it, the fact thay pro-baby butchery Catholic pols aren’t publicly confirmed as being excommunicated by their own well known odious actions is something to be ashamed of. Because it’s shameful. There would be nothing wrong with bishops calling out folks that not only support baby-butchery but claim it’s cool with Church teaching to do so. Bishops are supposed to teach. You can’t teach such bad sinners as us Catholics without discipline, and public discipline is the kind that teaches the most.
Freegards
First of all, the true catholic church has no priest other than Jesus Christ.
Secondly, the church of Rome ignores the words of the Apostle Paul::
1Tim 3:2 -
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; (KJV)
I understand your concerns. The Apostles in the early Church made the choice to adopt certain minor elements of other peoples’ traditions, if it didn’t go against what Christ taught. But the core of Catholicism is, and always will be the same. The Church also believes that the Holy Spirit continues to guide it, and most importantly, continues to teach and inform it! That is why, as the Church grows and matures through time, it may refine or complete a practice.
You must also know from your past that we believe there is another source for information about the early Church besides Scripture: the teaching and traditions carried down by word of mouth from the Apostles to the disciples to the Church.
All I can say to those who used to be Catholic is that people are flawed, the Church is not. Christ breathed on the early Church and promised He would never forsake them. He promised He would be with us always. We know Christ has kept His word. We flawed members just don’t always follow the Church’s teachings.
I always invite anyone to read books by Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, P. Madrid. They have a way of clarifying the essential issues and doctrines that divide us and analyze them from a Protestant perspective. Thank you for your thoughts on this issue. I have often read your posts with interest.
I am sorry PugetSound, but the Church from the very first always believed the bread and wine were actually the body and blood of Christ during the Mass. It was never symbolic. The Councils were held later when erroneous beliefs began to develop and were initiated to correct them. They were not establishing new belief systems, they were held to correct people who had started to fall away from what had always been understood to be Church teaching.
I do know that Jews and Gentiles are accepted into Christ’s Church.
I understand your concerns and I think you would find them overcome if you would read a version of the Gospels in the earliest translations. Make sure your Bible translation is from the earliest known versions.
Also, read some Hahn, Staples or Madrid. I ask you to consider that, if you left the Church when you were 12, you may have a 12 year old’s perceptions of our Church. At least re-examine the Church with an adult perspective and an adult’s understanding. Starting with these three authors will at least guide you in your examination of what the Catholic Church really believes, why it believes, and what its history is. They will bring up every one of your objections and will clarify what is Church teaching and what is hearsay about Church teaching.
Some of what you say about the Church is erroneous. You may have been taught incorrect ideas about Catholicism, from Catholics or Protestants. All any Catholic asks is that you know who we really are and what we really believe before you castigate us. Too many people hate Catholics because of what they think we believe- not for what we actually do believe.
I hope you will continue to investigate these issues. I have great faith in what you will discover!
I agree it would be very satisfying and instructive to have the Church publicly condemn CINO’s. Unfortunately, what we are faced with now is a generation that has had poor Catholic instruction and has no framework to analyze issues upon.
The only solution now for our Church is to begin re-teaching the basics to the next generation. We’ve got to do better about being clear about Church teaching. We don’t need to condemn; if we teach them right, they will know how to assess people who are Catholic in name only.
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