Posted on 12/27/2008 3:43:47 PM PST by NYer
Time for bed! Goodnight all!
And what is most insane about people like you? You simply cannot believe that someone can follow Christ in a different church. Your doctrine is your religion. Please go try to save someone else, for me and my house, we will follow the Lord.
I mean, not even my uncle tries to convert me to Catholicism and he’s a Catholic priest! Get off your high horse and become a Christian - come back to the REAL meaning of your religion.
Absolutely excellent read. Basic answer is cause the Church says so but it is great to hear such a wonderful QandA on the subject.
Well done
Mel
“My children see a priest at least weekly. The entire point is that he is not cloistered.”
So do mine. They also, most weeks, see his wife and kids.
In Matt. 19:11-12, Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church's practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.
Hence the etymology of 'vocation'. From the Latin, 'vocare'. to call, or as a noun, a calling.
“I agree it would be very satisfying and instructive to have the Church publicly condemn CINO’s. Unfortunately, what we are faced with now is a generation that has had poor Catholic instruction and has no framework to analyze issues upon.”
That’s exactly why they should be publicly called out as having excommunicated themselves.
“The only solution now for our Church is to begin re-teaching the basics to the next generation. We’ve got to do better about being clear about Church teaching. We don’t need to condemn; if we teach them right, they will know how to assess people who are Catholic in name only.”
I don’t think you can be clear on Church teaching without telling folks that their public actions (support/promotion of baby butchery and publicly stating this support is cool with the Church) have separated themselves from the Body of Christ. And it’s completely up to the person(s) called out if they will be let back in. They just need to repent and publicly change their ways.
I completely agree about the seeming edjumcation level of most Catholics—bishops quit teaching. I doubt if most Catholics have heard of latia sententia whateveria excommunication much less the concept. That’s why they should stand up and teach now. It’s not a hard concept: baby butchery is not cool with the Church. And no, I don’t reckon we should depend on a more informed generation of Catholics, although it’s something we should strive for. I really believe that the fact that the US Church is tolerating Catholic pols who dig baby butchery will be looked back at as a scandal dwarfing the homosexualist priest scandal.
Freegards
That’s interesting. My lovely wife is a Methodist.
When I hear about these situations, I usually do not think of Methodist ministers as being among such a group. To me, it seems a little further stretch than Anglicanism.
That being said, one of our finest young seminarians up on the Mount (Mt. Saint Mary’s in Emmitsberg, MD) was a convert from United Methodist ~ just had not been a pastor and too young to have married.
We also have a convert from Judaism as a local pastor.
It’s an interesting net of fish that the Lord drags in.
Read the original Greek and you'll find that Paul refers to taking the bread and wine as symbolic. Later teaching may have changed that, but 1 Cor 11:27-30 is clearly Pauline and clearly talks of a symbolic nature.
The fact you choose to pin your faith - and denounce the faith of others - on a questionable and small doctrinal point is sad.
So let me ask you - since I do not believe in transubstantiation, I cannot have communion with God, right? It is a meaningless exercise for Protestants, and we're just wayward, lost souls, right?
Read the original Greek and you'll find that Paul refers to taking the bread and wine as symbolic. Later teaching may have changed that, but 1 Cor 11:27-30 is clearly Pauline and clearly talks of a symbolic nature.
The fact you choose to pin your faith - and denounce the faith of others - on a questionable and small doctrinal point is sad.
So let me ask you - since I do not believe in transubstantiation, I cannot have communion with God, right? It is a meaningless exercise for Protestants, and we're just wayward, lost souls, right?
“No. You are making a common mistake. I NEVER include those who believe in heresy as in the Body. When Christ create the Body she only contained orthodox believers. There were no Protestants and would be no Protestants for another 1500 years. When the NT speaks of all believers being in the Church that must be understood as reflective of a time when there were no Protestants.”
First off, Hi Vlad, how are you?
Let me see if I understand your correctly. Protestants do not belong to the “Body of Christ” because their religion, which you claim as heretical, was not created yet. This same logic can be applied to catholics because the Catholic church had not been created yet. So we should all be Jewish because they were the first christians. Where in the bible does it say that only “orthodox believers” belong to the body of Christ? I mean in THE BIBLE, you know, God’s Final Word.
Why would you want to cause division among fellow believers, who believe that Jesus is our Saviour? And he’s the only Way? Why not embrace ALL believers whether they be methodist, protestant or catholic? Isn’t that what Christ commands us to do? To love one another?
You are citing one line from Paul in the original Greek and interpreting it. I am asking you to look at what Christ said in the original Greek.
I have not said you are not following Christ or that you are lost or a heretic. I have simply stated that I believe the Catholic Church has the fullest understanding of the faith Christ wanted from us.
I have not called you insane or criticized you. I have not said you are not a Christian, or told you to get off your high horse. All I asked you to do was investigate your stance and the Catholic Church further.
Your emotional reaction indicates you have unfinished business about your stance on the Church. I’m sure your uncle, who knows you well, knows you love God and has chosen not to upset you further. Examining your reaction to this discussion could benefit you.
I wish you well. I know you are a person of faith who is trying to serve God. Please don’t be offended if I am a happy Catholic who sees the wonder, truth and beauty of the Catholic Church. It’s there. May God bless you with peace and happiness and may you feel His presence in your life every day.
I am looking at the words of Christ. “THIS is my body which will be shed for you. DO THIS in REMBEMBRANCE of me”. It is clearly a call to memorialize and repeat the Last Supper as a way to remember what the sacrifice was.
That you have a different interpretation is fine with me; that I am not allowed mine is rather close-minded of you.
“do THIS” seems pretty clear to me.
“narrow minded” like a particular “gate?”
You wrote:
“First off, Hi Vlad, how are you?”
Irrelevant.
“Let me see if I understand your correctly. Protestants do not belong to the “Body of Christ” because their religion, which you claim as heretical, was not created yet. This same logic can be applied to catholics because the Catholic church had not been created yet.”
Incorrect. Christ founded the Catholic Church. Luther founded the first Protestant sect.
“So we should all be Jewish because they were the first christians.”
Incorrect. We are neither Jew nor Gentile - or have you forgotten the scriptures? To be an orthodox Christian is to be a completed Jew.
“Where in the bible does it say that only “orthodox believers” belong to the body of Christ?”
Everywhere - for nowhere do the saints commend heretics, assume they are in the Body or believe that there is more than one Body.
“I mean in THE BIBLE, you know, God’s Final Word.”
As I said: Everywhere. Just as there was only one Jerusalem - no matter what Samaria claimed - there is only one Church no matter what every sect out there claims. Sects come and go, but the Church will last until the end of time.
“Why would you want to cause division among fellow believers, who believe that Jesus is our Saviour?”
I cause no divisions. The divisions already exist. I merely recognize that fact and deal with it while you wish to pretend they don’t exist while slamming Catholics or the Catholic faith in other threads. Remember, I have dealt with you before and you pull this same sort of stunt again and again. You switch from Rodney King’s “Why can’t we all get along” nonsense to attacking Catholics whenever a Catholic shows your logic to be lacking.
“And he’s the only Way?”
Yes, He’s the only way. He told us so.
“Why not embrace ALL believers whether they be methodist, protestant or catholic?”
I embrace them where they are for what they are. If they tell me they believe in Christ as their Savior, I tell them Amen. That doesn’t mean I pretend they are anymore than sectarians, however. Methodism is a sect. Like many Christian sects, it has some good points because it emphasizes some undeniable truths. That doesn’t mean it is orthodox, however. Nor does it mean that it is historically from Christ. Nor does it mean that it is part of the Body of Christ. It isn’t. It is merely a man-made 18th century sect.
“Isn’t that what Christ commands us to do?”
No. Christ commands us to love everyone - including our enemies. He never commands us to assume, or presume, that everyone who says “Lord, Lord” is in the Body of Christ.
“To love one another?”
I can certainly love someone without lying, or pretending, or dissembling, or ignoring the truth. Protestant sects are not in the Church. They are not in the Body of Christ. That can be said in love and truth no matter how painful it is to hear.
Wow. I was genuine when I asked “how you were”. You’re hatred of anything non-catholic has blinded you. You and I went at it, and I, remember I, apologized to you. Seems that something so irrelevant as Christ commanding us to “love our enemies” (which, obviously I am in your eyes), is not meant for catholics, just those pesky heretics. Christ commanded you, as well as I, to love one another.
You can hold one heck of a grudge. Christ founded the christian faith, and those followers of Christ are His body, despite what you think.
You still didn’t answer my questions. Is it that you won’t or is it that you can’t? I only asked two question.
I’m sorry I hit another nerve. Why don’t you, instead of attacking us heathens, try and woo us to Christ? Because, apparently, we need it.
Again, there are many good reasons for the children to know their priest and see him both in the church setting and as he visits the house. One among them is to see a celibate man and know that celibacy is not some strange phenomenon that occurs in monasteries, but rather is something that can be lived out and celebrated just as naturally as an unmarried adolescent is supposed to stay chaste and still go to school, have friends, play sports, etc.
What in the Greek original makes you think that?
I thought Catholics WERE Christians — long before Luther.
Am I wrong about that? LOL!
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