Joseph Smith’s Modalism: Sabellian Sequentialism or Swedenborgian Expansionism?

Institute for Religious Research ^ | 2006 | Ronald V. Huggins

[DelphiUser]

Are you familiar with the basic Mormon theology?

Yes.

As man is God once was. As God is man may become. (Talmadge)

Yes that is a logical construct, but not part of our "official" theology.

This is bread and butter Mormonism. It is as basic to Mormonism as it can be. You never addressed this statement. It clearly states that God was a MAN. It wasn't in the Post response??? Must have overlooked it.....again.

It was not overlooked, it is not part of out Revealed knowledge of God. This Couplet I believe penned by Lorenzo Snow in 1840 has never been canonized and is merely a theory. It is based on the Deification of man which is pat of LDS doctrine, the logic goes like this, "If man can become a God then our God could have been a man at one point."

Anyway, It is totally inconsistent with:
Colossians 1:16 (New International Version)
“For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.”
actually, it's not, but I'm not here to go in minutia with you on the finer points of time and creation. We believe Jesus (the word) created all that we can see or not see.

The scripture states very clearly that “all” things were created by him. Seen and unseen. That would also cover other dimensions. Now, how could he do that if he was a man once?

Really? how do you know it would cover other dimensions? Are dimensions discussed in the Bible?

If Jesus existed, before anything and Jesus Created everything that can be seen or can't be seen, then isn't there a problem with him creating everything that can be seen or not? How did this verse square with the preexistence of Jesus to create everything.

I must conclude that God did not bother to try to explain to someone with no understanding of dimensional physics or knowledge of paradoxes how these things came to be. Which came first, the creator of all, or did he create himself and how did that work? These are nonsense questions.

These two statements are in conflict. Pure and simple.

Yes, if Jesus is either visible or invisible, and he created all things visible and invisible. then there is most certainly a conflict, or conundrum.

That is why most people get so upset with Mormon theology.

because they don't understand it? Yeah, i can see that, however, they don't seem to get upset with the things they don't understand about their own theology.

It's because most Mormons don't know their own doctrine. Christians know it better. Christians are trying to save Mormons from a real place called Ghenna. That is why we study scriptures we take it seriously.

LOL! Trust me, you do not know my doctrine better than I do. I could ask you just as nonsensical questions about the trinity, or show contradicting scriptures in the Bible. But I am not here to start a mud fight, so I won't.

BTW, for the record I study Mormonism, Scientology, Islam, Hinduism, and a bunch of other religions. I have a Catholic taste.

I study Mormonism, Buddhism, and any religion I can get people to talk to me about. I spend a lot of time reading when I can and I love to read works from the early church that never made it into the cannon (I recommend the book of Jasher, and the Book of Enoch to anyone who wants to understand the Bible better.) I also have studied and worked in astronomy. And, because I worked at the VLA. The Big Bang totally, totally, did I say totally disagrees with Mormon theology. But, it does reinforce Christian theology.

LOL! so in "Orthodox Christianity" What caused the Big bang?

I don't take the Great Commission lightly.

The great commission, you mean Mark 16:14-18? Where Jesus Give authority to the Disciples, and commands them to teach his gospel? I understand that many think that reading that gives them the authority to act in Jesus name, and I hope you are not one of them for I would hate to break it to you that Jesus was speaking to his Apostles who he called and gave instruction to, not to everyone who reads the Bible. (Having read the ?bible, I would have the same authority...)

An analogy:

A man is over heard saying to his wife, Take the Check book and pay all your bills, then buy yourself something nice. The wife pays the bills, and then leaves it on the kitchen table while she goes shopping for a gift. The eavesdropper runs into the kitchen, grabs the check book and pays all his bills then orders something online and mails off a check.

When the man comes home, he will have the eaves dropper arrested for stealing his money. Why? the message was addressed to his wife, not the man listening.

Those who think that Jesus giving instructions to the disciples means they have the same instruction will find themselves surprised when he comes.

Or the Gospel lightly. I also don't make up my own theology. :-) Like some posters.

Everyone makes up their own theology while thinking their s is the "Standard". religions are born because one person thinks one scripture is more important than another, this is how protestantism has grown so ... Diverse. those who think they do not, are just not aware of their perspective on reality and think that is reality. Only God has the perspective the is reality, the rest of us are off, the question is by how much.

I'm glad I could instruct basic Mormon theology. Because I do know more than most Mormons. I am not ashamed of that.

Pride goeth...

If you think that Lorenzo Snows Couplet is basic Mormons theology, you know less of Mormon Theology than my Daughter in Primary.

BTW, Mrs Marion G. Romney (wife first counselor) told me when I was in college that I knew Mormon theology better than most Mormons.

Name dropping? OK, Reed Benson my religion teacher said the couplet was not doctrine, so did Gordon B Hinckly (you know, he was the prophet at the time, he might know a bit about what we believe.)

That probably was and is true.

You seem to have forgotten more then you knew.

I even had to instruct some friends that went on missions what their doctrine was. I am a little rusty.

You can say that again.

But I sure caught that God once was a man doctrine that you missed? ;-)

Please show where that is doctrine. (Talmadge is not Canonized)

Good luck, you'll need it.

P.S. I personally believe that the couplet is true, but it's just not doctrine of the church.

[DelphiUser]

Another question. Do Mormons still believe that Mary wasn’t a Virgin.

I have a friend who for obvious reasons I'll leave nameless who had to father all his children by artificial insemination.

he is the biological father of those children as well as the father in every other way, however they were not the product of sex wiht their mother. (BTW, Artificial insemination and C section = very expensive children)

The church's position on this is clear, God the Father is the literal father of Jesus Christ because Jesus is the only begotten of the father, but here was no sex because Mary was a virgin. How was it "done" we don't exactly know, the power of the holy Ghost did it in some way. I am sure it was much more sophisticated than the crude methods we use today which could produce a Virgin who is also pregnant.

Let me reiterate.

Jesus is the literal son of God.

Mary was with child while still a virgin (no sex)

My personal feelings on this are pretty strong, I think Jesus Being a perfect son will take umbrage at anyone insinuating that his mother was not chaste and virtuous. Personally, I pity the fool who ticks him off by insulting his mother, and then sits before him on judgment day. (Not a smart move no matter what you believe that we believe...)

That God was the literal Father of Jesus.

We do indeed believe that God is the literal father of Jesus Christ, but this pregnancy was not achieved by Sex for we also believe that Mary was a virgin as I said before.

IMHO, you must have a dirty mind to come up with this stuff.

When I took Institute of Religion classes at U of U that was what they taught then.

And you did not understand this? It is a wonder you passed.

Oh yeah. In the resurrection where does she go? With Joseph or God?

Mary is Joseph's wife, and was chaste and virtuous, you do the math.

Thanks ahead, Just curious. :-)

Take my advice on this don't follow this line of inquiry, Jesus was a perfect son to Mary too.

[Elsie]

Ignore questions

"...answer the question that SHOULD have been asked..."
--Prof. Robert Millet

[Elsie]

Youda BEAST and a half!

[Elsie]

Wow, you just described DelphiUser with a capital T.

Get YOUR training HERE!!

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http://ctb.ku.edu/tools//sub_section_main_1275.htm

[colorcountry]

Okay, really, quit focusing on me.

I am just a person born in sim - committed sin and now I am saved by the grace of God in Jesus Christ.

Christ is my Savior. He loved me even in my sin - but now I am perfected through His blood. He uses me for His good even as He uses you, Delphi - for HIS good.

I am more blessed than you can imagine. DU, I hope you find freedom from your works, ordinances, oaths and performance through His love and ultimate sacrifice for you.

...nuff said!

[Elsie]

YEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS

And to think I almosted passed on this thread because of the title!

[Elsie]

Ouch!

[Elsie]

Greyfoxx is a sister. (Sorry about that.)

Greyfoxx is MY sister. (NOT Sorry about that!)

[Elsie]

Light bulbs, are you kidding there is no such thing as a light bulb...they are dark suckers.

While I 'respect' your opinion, I must point out that science has not DISPROVEN the existance of Dark Emiting Diodes: otherwise known as DED's.

--MormonDude(I've seen the Dark; and it is us.)

[Elsie]

On that we will just have to agree ot disagree.

Nope - it don't work that way.

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We believe in the Godhead, a word that appears in the KJV, where trinity does not.

You ALSO believe in 'cureloms'.

A word that appears in the BoM and not in the BIBLE.

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(Wait for it... UNICORNS!!!)

[Elsie]

YOU left out, on #6 & #7 the all important phrase:

"...and so forth."

[Elsie]

I have aways felt that the first person to hit the “abuse” button looses the argument.

"FEEL" all you want, GENTILE, but at LEAST the THREAD is gone or locked!

--MormonDude(I, for one, do NOT 'feel' abused!)

[Elsie]

The story of scientology has so many parallels to the bizarro world of mormonism.

 

 

 

 

Scientology is a newer religion than Mormonism...
	Don't make fun of them, they have a right to have their moronic beliefs respected.

[Elsie]

1) Do as the successful advertisers do: NEVER discuss you competitors product or name! Stay focused on selling **your** product.

I prefer the FDA approach:

Issue recall notices for dangerous products. Use every communication avenue available to warn folks about dangers to their health (or soul).

[Elsie]

I conclude that to acquire this level of knowledge of Mormonism these posters have neglected the bible, their families, and their own spiritual development.

Then it appears, according to the Bible, you conclude wrongly.

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2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Since the LDS Organization, based in SLC, claims to have the RESTORED 'truth', it would seem to most reasonable folks that that 'truth' should be studied: to rightly divide it.

[Elsie]

What is posted on these boards absolutely does **not** mesh with any of my experiences with my Mormon neighbors...

It does, however, MESH with the facts that have been published, taught, promulgated over the years by Mormon, Inc.

[Elsie]

I have no idea where you got this certificate thing, I got several while in scouts and even from some places where I passed tests, but I am not aware of any certification from my church that gives me salvation, did I miss something (else)?

Since YOU ain't the Living Prophet of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints, we can ONLY go by what an ex-Living Prophet of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints said long ago:

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They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.

He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.

He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.

As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.

Who has made this so?

Have I?

Have this people?

Have the world?

No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.

If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.

If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.

Can you pass without his inspection?

No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.

In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.

They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?

They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?

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"If I ever pass into heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of Prophet Joseph"
--Brigham Young
--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224

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BY believed this or LIED about it.

 

DU; do YOU believe it??

[Elsie]

I have a friend who for obvious reasons I'll leave nameless who had to father all his children by artificial insemination.

HAD TO??

Poor fellow - just WHO forced him to do this?

[Elsie]

Sorry Pogo...