Posted on 12/25/2008 9:13:44 PM PST by restornu
In Joseph Smith's day some of the most prominent Americans were disgusted with the creeds of Christendom. Thomas Jefferson said:
I [Jefferson] am a real Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the preachers . . of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said or did.
They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man of which Jesus, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. . . . It is the speculations of crazy theologians which have made a Babel out of religion (Saul K. Padover, Thomas Jefferson on Democracy, 1939, pp. 122-123).
Writing to S. Hales in 1818, Jefferson wrote: "The truth is that Calvinism has introduced into the Christian religion more new absurdities than its leaders had purged it of old ones" (Ibid., p. 219).
On Jefferson's monument in Washington, D.C., is inscribed: "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." If his complete quotation were on the monument it would bring out the fact that Jefferson was speaking against the dergy of his day (Ibid., p. 119).
Benjamin Franklin, replying to a letter from Ezra Styles, president of Yale, said shortly before his death:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left it to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes (Carl Van Doren, Benjamin Franklin, 1941, p. 777).
The first great work expressing the deistic feeling in America was Thomas Paine's Age of Reason, considered to have generated the greatest stir of any book of its day. It made clear that Paine was not an atheist as some claimed, but a deist because of the tyranny and bigotry he found in the existing churches (Thomas Paine, Age of Reason, 1793, p. 287).
Speaking of the period in America between 1670 and 1830, renowned theologian Paul Tillich has said, "First among the educated classes, then increasingly in the mass of industrial workers, religion lost its 'immediacy,' and it ceased to offer an unquestioned sense of direction and relevance to human living" (Roland N. Stromberg, Religious Liberalism, 1954, p. 1).
Carlyle has said of the Colonial Period: "An age fallen languid and destitute of faith and terrified of skepticism" (Ibid., p. ix).
Of this time Carl L. Becker has said, "What we have to realize is that in those years God was on trial" (Ibid., p. 1).
On another occasion, Thomas Jefferson said:
The impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who being themselves but fallible and uninspired men have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, have established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the earth (Peter H. Odegard, Religion and Politics, 1960, p. 110).
It is also true that in Colonial America only about 5 percent of the population belonged to any church and that those who did come to America for religious reasons did not come here initially to seek freedom of religion except for themselves. This is certainly an indictment against religion in Joseph Smith's day.
Peter Odegard also maintains this position:
Nowhere in the old world at the beginning of American colonization was there anything like religious toleration. . . . It is sad but not surprising to recall that even the religious dissenters who found refuge in America were, with notable exceptions, no more disposed toward toleration than the oppressors of the old world Obid., p. 9).
Historian William Warren Sweet says, "The rise of an intense anticlericalism was another cause of opposition to the churches." Further he relates: "The United States began as a free and independent nation with organized religion at a low ebb" (William Warren Sweet, Religion in the Development of American Culture, 1952, p. 92.).
What can I say?
I can be whimsical or I can be philosophical; my interests are quite varied, but like others, I try to keep the deepest philosophical ideas from the general public, because most of the “generals” will not understand and will try to ridicule the things that have taken me years to learn.
Feel free to discuss any subject with me. I welcome it!
“Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and demonic instructions.”
I Timothy 4:1
A post, made by YOU, was a ploy to tempt you?
Wow, we are powerful... Did the keyboard and mouse on your PC move itself, or was your hand guided by the "evil one" we conjured?
In the Word of Wisdom, the Lord revealed that the following substances are harmful:
YOU have erred assuming that there IS any logic at all involved.
One CANNOT be reasoned out of something they were not REASONED into to begin with!
>>Since I believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior, your comment about Mormons not being Christian seems a little confusing. Are you a Mormon? Have you spent much time with Mormons? What does the phrase, “The Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” mean to you? I focus on “The Church of Jesus Christ.” If that doesn’t make me a Christian, I’d like to know what does...<<
Didn’t say it.
No.
Yes.
Cultic Heresy.
Good.
If that does make someone a Christian, the Bible is wrong...
LAme strawman anology.
HUIH??
Yup?
We got a good day. ground was dry for the rugrats and not much pouting over who got what.
Now TODAY, we got all this mud and more coming.
I don't LIKE it!
>> It seems you AMPU have little faith in what Jesus council
>>John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Sorry Resty, that verse is written to Christians!
Didn’t say it.
No.
Yes.
Cultic Heresy.
Good.
If that does make someone a Christian, the Bible is wrong...
What?
You're responding to me with what you consider "logic?" *yawn*
Yah. I was in Arkansas for a week...interesting stuff, that!
My son has one son, no daughters, but they have some quality time! (Gramma helped!)
I’m glad your Christmas was a good one! I choose this time of year to reflect on all the things that God has given me over the last 12 months, and most of all, I’m grateful for “opposition in all things.” It reminds me that I’m human!
:o])
MF,
I answered the specific questions you asked.
Did you have unspoken questions???
ampu
Yes.
In a landscape far, far away (For a Hoosier boy, 50 years ago - Denver was QUITE foreign), walking back to Lowry Airbase after midnight on a cool late fall night morning, ruminating over the late night TY show (something about miracles at Lourdes), I found myself stating what I'd heard in school: Big Bang, Evolution, etal - I dismissed the show as fiction; a religion advertisement, a sawdust trail appeal.
Looking up at the brilliant pinpoints of light, sparkling in the high plains air, I thought of how they came to be.
Einstien's formula - E=Mc2 floated up from memory...
Knowing that the equation can be turned around to M=E/c2 I thought, "Yeah! All that MASS up there now shining down - it appeared after the tremendous energy burst of the Big Bang! The rest is history."
Almost back at the gate, confident that I'd figgered it out, an almost audible thought(?) came to me...
"Where did the ENERGY come from?"
At that time; I had no answer.
The above was the start...
I had NO church background - just what I'd absorbed form our culture. (Now THAT was really informative! ;^)
So when I heard what the BIBLE was saying about sin - condemnation - hopelessness - available redemption - I, like many others before me, searched the Scriptures. And found Jesus there. (Nah... HE found me!)
I knew then and still do, that NO 'church' is the 'right' church - all having men in them.
I never looked for a church that made me comfortable - just one that used the Bible - a simple thing to find.
I've visted many types over the years and ALL of them do 'things' in service that ain't... ooooh... SCRIPTURAL, but NONE of those 'things' took away from Jesus' simple statement when asked:
"What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
I'm confused by this comment. I stated my beliefs, and this is what you come back with.
Does this answer my questions? I don't think so. Please clarify.
I have CFIDS (Chronic Fatigue and Immune Dysfunction Syndrome) which sometimes impairs my ability to comprehend things. However, I think I understood you, but I may be wrong.
If you know I believe in Jesus Christ, where did I lose you?
Your argument is of course silly.
The command to “render unto Caesar”; was not a directive for humans to willingly submit to abuse. It should not be used to encourage humans to allow abuse by the state.
It was an answer to a question that was worded to entrap Jesus. The Jewish leaders were trying to paint Jesus as an enemy of their selves and of Rome.
Jesus used the wording of his answer to say that the coin that was shown to him was minted by the Roman government and that it was acceptable to pay taxes to Rome.
Whoa! God bless you, Elsie! You had the guts to think, ponder and decide!
I had “church” background but they (plural) were confusing because they seemed at opposites. I loved to go outside at night (especially in winter) with my dad and watch the Heavens and wait for my dad to teach me something. He always did.
As I grew older, I began to question religious “authority.” It seemed to me, that if God existed, He would manifest His existence if I asked for His guidance. For years, I believed I wasn’t worthy of His attention. I wasn’t knowledgeable enough to realize that all those years, He was guiding me, gently, slowly, and very surely, to where I am today.
I trust Him. I consult Him. I listen to Him.
And for anyone who wants to know, I belive in Jesus Christ, His ministry, and His Resurrection, and I know that He is Lord.
Not a creed, just a screed.
I guess it’s religious freedom that the forefathers fought for as long as it’s your religious beliefs? Why are you so hateful?
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