Posted on 08/11/2008 4:58:31 PM PDT by annalex
Christ knows us before the foundations of the world were laid. He doesn’t need the rite of baptism to know His children. He always has.
You’ve got no idea of the power of John 3:16. You’re showing me nothing. If you did, you wouldn’t have to work for your salvation. Christ dying wasn’t enough for you.
Rom 11:6 “And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.”
John 3:3 I know you have be born again (i.e. spiritual birth) as opposed to a physical birth.
You have to understand Christ had not sacrificed Himself for us on the Cross yet. Baptism was followed by repentence. And baptism was a form of purification.
And, no, not all the disciples were Jews. Luke supposedly was a Gentile. And it helped that most were Jews so they could deal with the Jewish converts. And this was all part of God’s plan. You think He (God) made a mistake?
In a sense they’re God’s chosen people? Either they are or they aren’t. I made no implication that they were better than anyone else.
I did deal with verses. You chose to discount my response because it didn’t fall into line with your way of thinking.
And I never implied that I “felt” saved. I base my salvation on faith. You may or may not “feel” saved. For me emotion doesn’t dictate what I believe.
I agree. The Bride of Christ is the Church. The True Church of Christ, which is the whole body of believers.
Again, the dig at Protestants. Because they didn’t want to subject themselves to human traditions in the Catholic church? They wanted the scriptures to be the basis for their belief? That doesn’t sound so awful, does it?
I agree with you again. People can fool themselves.
I will leave you with this:
“Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will
never count against him.”
You wrote:
“Vlad, that’s not true.”
Yes, it is.
“Jesus was a Jew.”
And a Catholic.
“He lived a Jew and died one.”
And He was a Catholic.
“He was never Catholic and neither were the gospel writers.”
They were all Catholics.
“It’s all wishful thinking on the part of Catholics.”
No, it’s just true.
You got me there.....where did I put my greek Bible?
You wrote:
“I was trying to find SOMETHING we agreed on. Lighten up, my FRiend.”
I don’t think these issues are about levity.
“We both have our own version of Truth and neither one of us is going to give in. Let God judge.”
I don’t have a version of the Truth - I just follow the Truth: there’s one Christ and one Church. God has already judged.
Vlad, I follow the truth as well. Don’t let arrogance creep in to these conversations. You’re above that. Scripture is the truth. The church follows some scripture, some traditions of men. You don’t know what their truth really is unless it’s scriptural, and you can interpret scripture without a group of men telling you what it is.
Oh, dear FRiend. You’ve really been sold a bill of goods, haven’t you?
All the best to you, too. It is good te be mutually understood.
The deposit of faith does not change and cannot change. Things that can change, and sometimes need to change are how the Church responds to the changed world. For example, when the Church became powerful and wealthy in the Middle Ages, the emphasis on monasticism and self-giving became needed and St. Fransis supplied it. When the Protestant Reformation happened, the doctrines they questioned needed to be clarified and we had the Council of Trent. When materialism ans secularism became the force of the day, we had Vatican I and the wrok of Leo XIII. When Latin stopped being universally recognized language, worship in the vernacular languages had to develop and we had Vatican II. Now we have a sexual revolution and its evil fruit; this necessitated developemnt of theology of the body that uphold the biblical values.
You wrote:
“You’ve got no idea of the power of John 3:16. You’re showing me nothing. If you did, you wouldn’t have to work for your salvation. Christ dying wasn’t enough for you.”
Again, your wrong. 1) I DO KNOW of the power of John 3:16. I know it better than you because I don’t twist the verse out of context as you do. 2) I don’t work for my salvation. Christ did. I’ve told that to you now three times, and yet you keep bearing false witness. Why? 3) Christ dying was enough to create the grace I need, but if I don’t accept Christ I am doomed as are you if you don’t accept Him. It’s almost as if you believe someone can be saved without believing or obeying Christ!
“Rom 11:6 “And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.”
St. Paul is talking about works of the Mosaic Law. I have nothing whatsoever to do with those works. Nothing!
“John 3:3 I know you have be born again (i.e. spiritual birth) as opposed to a physical birth.”
Spiritual rebirth is through baptism which comes from Christ on the cross. Again, you completely ignore that fact that I long ago posted Romans 6:3. You keep setting up verses in opposition to one another and don’t even realize it.
“You have to understand Christ had not sacrificed Himself for us on the Cross yet. Baptism was followed by repentence. And baptism was a form of purification.”
Did Moses go to heaven? According to your paragraph above he could not have gone. Do you know why? You’re assuming that Chirst’s sacrifice on the cross was limited by time and space. We don’t believe that at all. We know the real power of Christ’s sacrifice. We know it was so powerful that it saved even those patriarchs who came into this world BEFORE Christ. And Baptism is a form of purification - of the soul. Again, Acts 22:16.
“And, no, not all the disciples were Jews.”
Yes, they were.
“Luke supposedly was a Gentile.”
Luke was not part of the original 70 disciples. He was a disciple of Paul. This is absolutely clear from the fact that Luke, himself, when he doesn’t say anything about ever being an eyewitness to Chirst as all the original Disciples had been. St. Paul was NOT one of the original Apostles either.
“And it helped that most were Jews so they could deal with the Jewish converts.”
All of the original disciples were Jews. Remember, Jesus came for the Jews FIRST.
“And this was all part of God’s plan. You think He (God) made a mistake?”
No. Nor have I ever suggested He has. Why do you continue to make up these bizarre things?
“In a sense they’re God’s chosen people? Either they are or they aren’t. I made no implication that they were better than anyone else.”
I didn’t say you did. In a sense they are the Chosen People, but they are not the Bride of Christ, nor are they the Body of Christ. Christ came to them and many rejected Him. They still have chances to accept Him, however. Christians are - according to the Bible - elect and chosen: Romans 8:33, 11:5, Colossians 3:12, 1 Peter 2:9.
“I did deal with verses.”
Untrue. Where did you ever deal with Acts 22:16? Where did you ever deal with Romans 6:3? You never did.
“You chose to discount my response because it didn’t fall into line with your way of thinking.”
No. You rarely if ever dealt with the verses I posted. The list is now to long for me to recall and post here, but there were a number of verses and you ignored almost every single one of them if not every one of them. You offered no alternative explanation to them that actually examined the verses.
“And I never implied that I “felt” saved.”
I didn’t say you did. You feel you are saved. I didn’t say you agreed. That’s just the fact of the matter because you can’t present any logical evidence to suggest you are saved. Since you can neither document it, nor even build a logical argument for it, it is just a feeling even if you deny it.
“I base my salvation on faith. You may or may not “feel” saved. For me emotion doesn’t dictate what I believe.”
So far you have admitted that your feelings dictate how you post and how you act. That’s why you apologized to me. I have no reason, therefore, to think your feelings do not dictate what you believe because what you believe clearly has an enormous influence on what you post and how you act.
“I agree. The Bride of Christ is the Church. The True Church of Christ, which is the whole body of believers.”
No. The body of believers were ALL Catholic at Pentecost. Since then there are sects. They are made up of Christians, they’re believers, but they are not in the Body.
“Again, the dig at Protestants. Because they didn’t want to subject themselves to human traditions in the Catholic church?”
Protestantism IS A HUMAN TRADITION. It was started in 1517 by Martin Luther. Not Christ. Not God the Father. Martin Luther. Protestantism is a human tradition. That’s no dig. That’s just the painful truth. Protestantism was started by Martin Luther - not Christ.
“They wanted the scriptures to be the basis for their belief? That doesn’t sound so awful, does it?”
They never took the scriptures are their basis and still don’t. All Protestants use their intellect, feelings, moods, drives, faith, and so on to translate, edit, and interpret the scriptures. That’s why the Protestants DON’T AGREE AND CAN NEVER AGREE AMONG THEMSELVES. Lutherans baptize children. Baptists don’t. Who is right? They both claim to use the Bible alone too.
“I agree with you again. People can fool themselves.”
And that must mean that Protestants fool each other because either Lutherans or Baptists are right, but both can’t be right.
“I will leave you with this:“Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven,whose sins are covered.Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.””
And we know how that is done: Acts 22:16 and John 20:19-23.
You wrote:
“Vlad, I follow the truth as well.”
No. We can’t disagree but both be right. Therefore, one of us is wrong and it isn’t me.
“Don’t let arrogance creep in to these conversations.”
Truth is not arrogance.
“You’re above that.”
I hope so, but what I am is not going to make the mistake of assuming Truth is arrogance.
“Scripture is the truth.”
The Truth is Christ. (John 14:6) Scripture is true, but it is not the only true thing.
“The church follows some scripture, some traditions of men.”
No. The Church follows the Truth - Who is a Person, Christ. He sent the Church and the Church wrote scripture under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
“You don’t know what their truth really is unless it’s scriptural, and you can interpret scripture without a group of men telling you what it is.”
Wow. Show me the verse that tells you what books belong in the Bible. Oh, that’s right. There isn’t one. So much for your idea. And yes, anyone can interpret scripture, but notice how that has led to endless competing interpretations. Right, it’s been a failure. It isn’t because of the Holy Spirit. It’s because of men. Protestantism is a man made tradition.
You wrote:
“Oh, dear FRiend. You’ve really been sold a bill of goods, haven’t you?”
No, I’m not a Protestant.
No, unfortunately, you are not.
Catholicism is also a man made tradition. Get out from amongst her before it’s too late.
Yes, it is.
You wrote:
“No, unfortunately, you are not.”
No, fortunately, I am not. I was saved from that error laden, man made collection of sects. I have always been in the body of Christ instead. Praise God!
You wrote:
“Catholicism is also a man made tradition.”
Wait. “Also” ? You mean you are acknowledging that Protestantism is man made? Thanks!
“Get out from amongst her before it’s too late.”
I have no reason to leave Christ’s Body for your man made (as you just admitted) sects.
OK.
Maybe I can look at it tomorrow or Sat.
Thanks.
I started out responding to your last post, and decided there’s no use. You’ve got me pegged as a heretic and are treating me like one too. It’s ok for you to be offensive, but cry foul when someone throws something back at you. I apologized to you for being out of line. At least I was man enough, so to speak, to do that.
You posted so many words you don’t even know exactly what you posted. You tell me you didn’t say this or that, when you did. I don’t feel the need to perpetuate a discussion with someone who’s not willing to admit they said something.
You denied many things you did say. You go right ahead and pounce on the next person, you seem to get some sort of charge out of it. You presumed many things about me, you don’t even know me, but yet you have the audacity to tell me what I’m thinking and feeling. It’s a losing battle talking to you....you’re right and everyone else is wrong. How can everyone else be wrong? You misconstrue what’s being said to your own bend.
I have tried being what Christ wants me to be with you, but I’m no saint. First, you insult my intelligence by insinuating I don’t know this verse or that verse. I don’t have them all memorized. Yes, I do read the Bible. You are gonna believe what your church says to believe. I am going to believe what the Bible says. I did deal with verses that were posted, it just suits your purpose to say I didn’t.
I am willing to admit when I’m wrong, you are not. I know, because your never wrong, right? All you’ve said to me is “no, NO, wrong. You responded with a sanctimonious attitude, that is a turn-off for a christian, just think about that lost soul you’re winning to Christ.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
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