Posted on 07/29/2008 4:39:52 PM PDT by annalex
Evangelicals have been going through a major change of heart in their view of Catholicism over the past 15 years or so. In the 80’s when I was in college I lived in the Biblebelt and had plenty of experience with Evangelicals–much of it bad experience. The 80’s was the height of the “Are you saved?” question. In Virginia, the question often popped up in the first 10 minutes of getting to know someone. As I look back, Isurmise that this was coached from the pulpit or Sunday school as it was so well coordinated and almost universally applied. It was a good tactic for putting Catholics on the defensive even before it was known that they were Catholic—”ummmm, uhhh, well no, I’m not sure, I’m Catholic.” Then a conversation about works righteousness or saint statues would ensue. Yeah, nice to meet you, too.
Thankfully, those days are pretty much over. We now have formerly rabid anti-Catholics apologizing and even praising the pope. Catholics and Evangelicals have both learned that we have much in common and need each other to face the secular culture with a solid front. But, where did this detente come from? I think there is a real history to be told here and a book should be written. Let me give my perceptions of 7 major developments since 1993, which I regard as the the watershed year for the renewal of the Catholic Church in the United States.
1. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1993. When this document came out, it was uncertain that even Catholics would read it. We should have known that something was up when the French version hit the top of the bestsellers charts in France and stayed there for months. The English version did the same in the US. Catholics were reading the Catechism, forming study groups and challenging errant professors in the classroom.
2. World Youth Day, Denver 1993. Catholic youth and youth ministers woke up. Suddenly, Catholic youth ministers realized that the youth loved the pope. And they loved him all the more because he did not talk down to them or water down the faith. He challenged them. Gone now were the pizza and a video parish youth nights. Furthermore, youth and young adults took up the challenge to evangelize. One of those youth heard the message and started a website, New Advent. Catholic youth were now becoming zealous for the Catholic faith in its fullness and were not going to be swayed by an awkward conversation that began with “Are you saved?”
3. Scott Hahn. While the Catechism is great for expounding the Catholic faith, it is not a work of apologetics itself. It is not written to expose the flaws of Evangelical theology. It is not written to defend the Church against the attacks of Evangelicals per se. It just would not let them get away with misrepresenting the Catholic faith. But Scott Hahn hit the scene at about the same time with Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism (Ignatius Press: San Francisco, 1993). I first heard his testimony on cassette tape in 1996. It blew my mind. Suddenly, Catholic apologetics, which is as old as the Catholic Church itself, got a leg up and there was an explosion of books, magazines and websites that effectively undercut the arguments of the 5 Solas. For the first time, there was a cadre of Catholics well enough informed to defend their faith.
4. The Internet. The Net started exploding from 1993 to 1996. I had my first account in ‘94. Compuserve was horribly basic, but by ‘96 I had AOL and the religion debates raged instantly. Catholics who had just been given the most powerful weapon in the arsenal in the war against misinterpretation of their teaching were learning to type on a forum while balancing their catechisms on their laps. Of course, online versions came out, as well. But, no Evangelical bent on getting Catholics out of the arms of the Whore of Babylon could expect to do so without himself have a copy of the Catechism, knowing it inside out and pouring over it for the errors and horrors he would surely find. Evangelical apologists were confronted with a coherent and beautiful presentation of the Catholic faith that they were ill equipped to argue against. They learned that Catholics, too, loved Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The Catechism had arrived providentially just before the internet and had turned the tables in just a few short years. With the apologetic movement hitting at the same time, Evangelicals were also confronted with Catholics who could argue from the Bible defending their faith and demonstrating the weaknesses of Evangelical interpretations of scripture.
5. Early Church Fathers. One fruit of the Apologetics movement has been a flowering anew of Catholic interest in Patristics. This is happening at every level from armchair apologists to doctoral studies. It is suddenly all about Patristics, whereas in the 70’s-90’s the academic focus had been on Karl Rahner and Liberation Theology.
6. Evangelical Third World Experience. Evangelicals have had a field day in Latin America among the poor who are not part of the internet conversation and are distant from the study of apologetics. But, Evangelicals have learned from their experiences abroad an essential aspect of the Gospel they were missing: the Works of Mercy. Once haughty with their criticism of “works righteousness,” they have learned one cannot attend to the spiritual needs of the poor without attending to their bodily needs. Catholic have always understood this. Now, the Evangelicals are coming around. I haven’t heard an Evangelical Televangelist speak on works righteousness in many years.
7. Secularism. With the collapse of the Mainline churches as the backbone of American religion over the past thirty years (since about 1975), Catholics and Evangelicals are the only ones left standing in this country to present the Gospel. Secularism is on the rise and is ruthless. Evangelicals are now learning that only Catholicism has the intellectual resources to combat the present secular age. And, with the pope, we have a pretty effective means for communicating the faith and representing it to the world. There is nothing an Evangelical can do that will match the power of one World Youth Day.
With such an array of Providential developments, Evangelicals as well as Catholics have come to appreciate the depth and the breadth of the Catholic faith. It is far more difficult for them to honestly dismiss Catholicism as the work of Satan as once they did without qualm. There have been apologies and there have been calls for a new partnership. Let us hope these developments will bring about a new moment of understanding for the Glory of the Lord.
an excellent article. I didn't know about Peter's bones in Jerusalem...
“According to history, what was posted is correct. Those forgeries were definitely used to build up the case for the papacy. You will have to argue with the History Scholars on that.”
I doubt if I were to take up the question, it would hardly be with ‘history scholars’. You need to read what I wrote in my initial response to you. The question is not whether there were forgeries, the question is, were they the basis for the papal claims. The answer is a resounding “no”. Read the linked article: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9810fea3.asp.
A couple of additional points:
(1) Even Dollinger, who opposed Vatican I and subsequently left the Catholic Church, in his book “The Pope and the Council” written under the pseudonym of “Janus”, admits the false decretals were written in France (i.e. the popes were not their author), and
(2) that the false decretals were not written with the aim in mind of advancing papal claims. Read the linked article.
Dollinger, mentioned in your post, is the historical source for most (all) Protestant apologists - I presume your ‘history scholars’ - on this subject of the false decretals; yet they all seem to neglect to note the fact that Dollinger explicitly concedes both of these points. Again, read the linked article.
“People reject Catholicism because they are willing to reject parts of the gospel they don’t like. One who reads the gospel as written will soon be either Catholic or Orthodox at heart.”Does that apply to Genesis 1 and Exodus 20?
:)
Miles: “Further, you are mistaken in saying that the Council of Sardica - which recognized appeals to Rome - was not received by the East.”
Truth Defender: ‘Negative. At the time it was held the Eastern Church didn’t accept it. That is history, without being rewritten by Rome at a later date and with new leadership in the Eastern and Western churches.’
You said Sardica was not accepted. Sardica was a local council held in the West; which later was explicitly accepted by the Eastern Church. What you have, here, is a positive proof that the undivided Church accepted the right of appeals to Rome. There are no ifs, ands or buts about it.
Yet, we Protestants would reject some of your assertions as being illegitimate “correctives” to the secularization of our world...and thus your assertion that the aggregate is unique to the RC...and that the RC is therefore the only corrective to this secularization.
Posters who are easily offended must stay away from the "open" threads and instead post on the "ecumenical" "caucus" "prayer" or "devotional" threads.
In this case, it would have been appropriate to respond that the allegation made is false and provide the supporting information.
It is not however appropriate or tolerable to attack the other poster personally and for that reason your post will be removed.
“So in the Didache the instruction about baptism wasn't specifically given to priests, was it? It was given to all Christians.” [excerpt]Remember what peter wrote:
¶ Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1st Peter 1:1-2
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1st Peter 2:6
Nothing this side of heaven is always so except death and taxes.
Those are Protestants that you know, probably from your specific church. It is interchangeable to a great many Protestants.
But somehow, your personal experience with Protestants is greater than mine... Hmmm. And no, my experience is not limited to my church, or my town, or even this one board on the internet...
TRUE.
Thx.
There ya go, makin' sense and everything...
“The only safety I really feel is in the arms of Jesus. The world sure isn’t a safe place and so we need to dwell in Him for our security and peace.”Amen to that.
Thanks for this post, sandy.
Somebody needed to step forward and do it.
Yes... The Albigensian Crusade, The Children's Crusade, The Wendish Crusade, the Prussian Crusade, The Fresian (Stedingers) Crusade, the Russian Crusades, the Argonese Crusade, the Hussite Crusade, and the Swedish Crusades... All noble wars of liberation of the Holy Land (/sarc)
One might question the unnecessary brutality of the wars of Reformation, but then one should begin by questioning the so-called reformation itself.
I would suggest the root of the problem was the one still involved with the killing of the Waldensians at the time, as they had been for centuries, and the selling of indulgences... The brutality was already long underway. The treatment of the Protestants was true to form.
The Holy Inquisition in its full vigor is something modernity sorely lacks [...]
I need only leave that opinion to the imagination of the reader.
When substantive arguments are lacking, attempts to defame the winning side often ensue. It is no big deal.
Burned at the stake, flayed alive, tongue cut out, death in prison, land and home confiscated... No big deal.
Thanks.
Well put as usual.
INDEED.
Though I find the serfs as guilty as the arrogant pontificators. The serfs LIKE to have pomp and circumstance and to feel elevated BY THAT TANGIBLE GILT AND FINERY
instead of BY CHRIST’S LOVE FOR THEM TO THE POINT OF DEATH.
Therein is another level of blasphemy and idolatry all in one.
I’m still waiting for a pope or any denominational head or even a pastor . . . to go about in sackcloth and ashes . . . even for merely a month . . . or a year . . . or one day a week.
Perhaps WHEN [vs if] the traumas really begin in overt common-place intensity . . . folks will suddenly find time bother, and courage to do so.
AUTOMATIC ASSUMPTIONS
that
It's impossible for a rabid RC to be thin-skinned. It must ALWAYS BE THE FAULT OF SOME PROTTY INVOLVED.
And, the post by the PROTTY MUST ALWAYS BE SLANDEROUS--it's impossible for it to be merely a factual observation.
I find such ASSUMPTIONS much younger than juvenile--about 2 years old. "Mommy--IT'S HIS FAULT. He wouldn't give me his truck when I hit him on the head and grabbed it!"
And the wailing and whining and dust throwing and blaming. Sheesh. PLEASE visit the taxidermy. RENT a thicker hide. We might all chip-in.
REFRESHER COURSE:
INSTITUTIONS ARE NOT:
1. GOD THE FATHER
2. JESUS
3. HOLY SPIRIT
4. GODLINESS
5. HEAVEN
6. SALVATION
7. ETERNAL LIFE
8. HEALTH
9. WHOLENESS
10. HAPPINESS
11. MARITAL RELATIONS
12. FOOD
13. SHELTER
14. TRANSPORTATION
15. WATER
16. CLEAN AIR
17. PEACE
18. SANITY
19. TRUTH
20. WISDOM
21. They're not even purity of KNOWLEDGE.
. . . .
They are far more likely:
1. DISTORTIONS
2. LIES
3. WALLS
4. BONDAGE
5. IDOLS FOSTERING MORE IDOLS
6. POLITICAL POWER-MONGERING COLLECTIONS OF INSECURE EGOTISTICAL FOSSILIZED OLDER FUSS BUDGETS ADDICTED TO BUREAUCRACIES AND BUREAUCRATIC EXCESSES AND PARTICULARLY TO !!!!CONTROLLING!!!! THE SERFS.
7. DESTRUCTIVE !!!!TRADITION!!!
8. DEMONIZED STRONGHOLDS OF FOLKS IN REBELLION AGAINST GOD AND SEEKING TO BUILD THEIR OWN KINGDOMS VS GOD'S KINGDOM.
9. COLLECTIONS OF POLITICIANS ADDICTED TO MANIPULATIVE GAMES-MANSHIP AND ONE UPPING THE NEXT POLITICIAN OR THE LAST OFFICE HOLDER.
10. HINDRANCES TO GOD'S KINGDOM WILL AND LIFE VS FACILITATORS OF SAME.
11. AFFRONTS TO GOD'S WORD VS MODELERS OF IT.
12. PRETEND TIDY LITTLE BOXES EVER DEMANDING GOD GET BACK IN !!!!THEIR!!!! LITTLE BOX.
13. GRAND-STANDING STAGES FOR PARADING VAIN-GLORIES UNDESERVED, UNWARRANTED, AND FORBIDDEN.
14. SATANICALLY ENCOURAGED DUNGEONS AND PRISONS FOR CORRALLING THE SERFS AND DEMANDING THAT THE SERFS !!!!CONFORM!!!! TO THE !!!!RELIGIOUS!!!! ELITE'S NOTIONS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS--PARTICULARLY THEIR 1,999,666 SPECIFICATIONS ABOUT SUCH.
15. MORGUES FOR HAS BEEN BELIEVERS INSTEAD OF NURSERIES AND FINISHING SCHOOLS.
. . .
How anyone in any particularly aged INSTITUTION can look themselves in the mirror and congratulate themselves on being such a fine Christian after aiding and abetting such hideousness is ALMOST beyond me.
Labeling
honest prayerful
declarations of
TRUTH AND RIGHTEOUSNESS
as “tin-pot bigotry” is not likely to bless The Lord . . . nor the false accuser.
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