Posted on 07/29/2008 4:39:52 PM PDT by annalex
Evangelicals have been going through a major change of heart in their view of Catholicism over the past 15 years or so. In the 80’s when I was in college I lived in the Biblebelt and had plenty of experience with Evangelicals–much of it bad experience. The 80’s was the height of the “Are you saved?” question. In Virginia, the question often popped up in the first 10 minutes of getting to know someone. As I look back, Isurmise that this was coached from the pulpit or Sunday school as it was so well coordinated and almost universally applied. It was a good tactic for putting Catholics on the defensive even before it was known that they were Catholic—”ummmm, uhhh, well no, I’m not sure, I’m Catholic.” Then a conversation about works righteousness or saint statues would ensue. Yeah, nice to meet you, too.
Thankfully, those days are pretty much over. We now have formerly rabid anti-Catholics apologizing and even praising the pope. Catholics and Evangelicals have both learned that we have much in common and need each other to face the secular culture with a solid front. But, where did this detente come from? I think there is a real history to be told here and a book should be written. Let me give my perceptions of 7 major developments since 1993, which I regard as the the watershed year for the renewal of the Catholic Church in the United States.
1. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1993. When this document came out, it was uncertain that even Catholics would read it. We should have known that something was up when the French version hit the top of the bestsellers charts in France and stayed there for months. The English version did the same in the US. Catholics were reading the Catechism, forming study groups and challenging errant professors in the classroom.
2. World Youth Day, Denver 1993. Catholic youth and youth ministers woke up. Suddenly, Catholic youth ministers realized that the youth loved the pope. And they loved him all the more because he did not talk down to them or water down the faith. He challenged them. Gone now were the pizza and a video parish youth nights. Furthermore, youth and young adults took up the challenge to evangelize. One of those youth heard the message and started a website, New Advent. Catholic youth were now becoming zealous for the Catholic faith in its fullness and were not going to be swayed by an awkward conversation that began with “Are you saved?”
3. Scott Hahn. While the Catechism is great for expounding the Catholic faith, it is not a work of apologetics itself. It is not written to expose the flaws of Evangelical theology. It is not written to defend the Church against the attacks of Evangelicals per se. It just would not let them get away with misrepresenting the Catholic faith. But Scott Hahn hit the scene at about the same time with Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism (Ignatius Press: San Francisco, 1993). I first heard his testimony on cassette tape in 1996. It blew my mind. Suddenly, Catholic apologetics, which is as old as the Catholic Church itself, got a leg up and there was an explosion of books, magazines and websites that effectively undercut the arguments of the 5 Solas. For the first time, there was a cadre of Catholics well enough informed to defend their faith.
4. The Internet. The Net started exploding from 1993 to 1996. I had my first account in ‘94. Compuserve was horribly basic, but by ‘96 I had AOL and the religion debates raged instantly. Catholics who had just been given the most powerful weapon in the arsenal in the war against misinterpretation of their teaching were learning to type on a forum while balancing their catechisms on their laps. Of course, online versions came out, as well. But, no Evangelical bent on getting Catholics out of the arms of the Whore of Babylon could expect to do so without himself have a copy of the Catechism, knowing it inside out and pouring over it for the errors and horrors he would surely find. Evangelical apologists were confronted with a coherent and beautiful presentation of the Catholic faith that they were ill equipped to argue against. They learned that Catholics, too, loved Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The Catechism had arrived providentially just before the internet and had turned the tables in just a few short years. With the apologetic movement hitting at the same time, Evangelicals were also confronted with Catholics who could argue from the Bible defending their faith and demonstrating the weaknesses of Evangelical interpretations of scripture.
5. Early Church Fathers. One fruit of the Apologetics movement has been a flowering anew of Catholic interest in Patristics. This is happening at every level from armchair apologists to doctoral studies. It is suddenly all about Patristics, whereas in the 70’s-90’s the academic focus had been on Karl Rahner and Liberation Theology.
6. Evangelical Third World Experience. Evangelicals have had a field day in Latin America among the poor who are not part of the internet conversation and are distant from the study of apologetics. But, Evangelicals have learned from their experiences abroad an essential aspect of the Gospel they were missing: the Works of Mercy. Once haughty with their criticism of “works righteousness,” they have learned one cannot attend to the spiritual needs of the poor without attending to their bodily needs. Catholic have always understood this. Now, the Evangelicals are coming around. I haven’t heard an Evangelical Televangelist speak on works righteousness in many years.
7. Secularism. With the collapse of the Mainline churches as the backbone of American religion over the past thirty years (since about 1975), Catholics and Evangelicals are the only ones left standing in this country to present the Gospel. Secularism is on the rise and is ruthless. Evangelicals are now learning that only Catholicism has the intellectual resources to combat the present secular age. And, with the pope, we have a pretty effective means for communicating the faith and representing it to the world. There is nothing an Evangelical can do that will match the power of one World Youth Day.
With such an array of Providential developments, Evangelicals as well as Catholics have come to appreciate the depth and the breadth of the Catholic faith. It is far more difficult for them to honestly dismiss Catholicism as the work of Satan as once they did without qualm. There have been apologies and there have been calls for a new partnership. Let us hope these developments will bring about a new moment of understanding for the Glory of the Lord.
In the 20th century, the most notorious examples of clerically influenced governments were in Spain, Portugal, and Croatia. Franco, Salazar, and Pavelic basically allowed the Church to run cultural policy, and (to a lesser extent than the European polities from the 4th to 19th centuries) political affairs as well.
May God have mercy.
Let’s pick one out of the stack - the priesthood.
Are you saying that the Roman Catholic priesthood of today is the same as that “from the book of Acts on”?
The RCC cannot claim to be inerrant unless they also choose to embrace their past actions as correct as done in Christ's name. To do so would be inexcusable, so I really see no defense wrt the subject whatsoever.
Christ founded the Catholic Church circa 32 AD.
Acts chapter 2 gives the account.
Is the Roman Catholic priesthood the same today as it was from the founding of the church "from Acts onward"?
You haven't been on the Religion threads for very long, have you? /rhetorical question
It's possible to see one protestant say about another protestant confession, "Them fellers was wrong." But you will never hear them say it about their own confession. That's what's so funny: all the other protestants didn't get it quite right, they made mistakes, but if we concentrate on the Catholics, we won't have to take responsibility for all the (other guys') protestant errors.
It's almost like the demand for reparations. No living American owned slaves. Likely, their grandparents didn't either. No living black American was a slave, and likely their grandparents weren't either. But white America OWES reparations, because of what was done in the past.
In the same way, each individual Catholic is held responsible, by protestants, for every Catholic, pope, priest, and writer throughout the last 2000 years. I mean, seriously, posters have asked "What about what you did to Gallileo?" Honestly. Sometimes I wonder.
Well said!
Yeah, riiight...
Revisionism at it's finest. I have already begun this discussion with wagglebee, and have begun to order the research necessary to refute it properly. I will publish within a few months time (as time allows). I will be certain to raise an article here to discuss the Crusades and Inquisitions in Europe and Northern Africa more fully at that time.
My experience regarding this issue is certainly from anti-Catholic sources, but not Protestant ones. I had made a study of ancient European trade routes some years ago, and in the course of that study, relied upon the work of bards and troubadours, as well as more conventional first person historical sources.
I am so offended by the revisionism I find going on regarding this subject that I have made it a personal priority to correct it.
stay tuned.
Also, no Lutherans practice private confession. We practice a general confession. But private confession to a pastor, inside a little booth, that we do not do. I believe the church, in the Lutheran Confessions, still supports the notion of private confession, but it is not considered a sacrament nor is it at all practiced by any Lutheran body that I've ever heard about. Sacraments in the Lutheran Church are believed to be only those that contain some outward sign - Baptism (the water) and the Lord's Supper (bread & wine).
This just goes to show how very far the LCMS is removed from Lutheranism.
Any insight?
Hmmm. You must not have heard me going round about with the venerable Dr. Eckleburg and Lord Calvinus (among others) the other day about infant baptism then, huh? I am Dutch Reformed (technically) attending a Presbyterian (PCA, [Yes Dr.E, it is PCA]) Church, who has significant differences with Reformed theology on infant baptism, and with aspects of predestination. I had no problem speaking my mind at all. And as one might expect, they did not seem timid in their replies, either.
In the same way, each individual Catholic is held responsible, by protestants, for every Catholic, pope, priest, and writer throughout the last 2000 1600 years.
Again, that is *not* the point. The reason I brought it up was as an example of errancy. NOTE: The Catholic Church is no less inerrant than any other church. WE (churches, confessions) ALL HAVE, AND WILL, MAKE MISTAKES. Sometimes they are big ones. The difference is that the rest of us admit to them. We confess...
I respectfully suggest that you need to reread the Lutheran Confessions, especially the, Augsburg Confession,:
Article XI: Of Confession.
1] Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession 2] an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19, 12.
Regarding actual practice, it is much more common that you may suppose. The 250+ member/subscribers to the Rule of the Society of the Holy Trinity (comprised of LCMS, ELCA, and ELCIC clergy) have bound themselves to this chapter:
Chapter V
Confession and Absolution
Individual or personal confession of sins is to be kept and used by us for the sake of the absolution, which is the word of forgiveness spoken by a fellow pastor as from God himself. Therefore, members will:
1. Learn and adopt the understanding and practice of Confession and Absolution as described in the Augsburg Confession (Article XI, XII, XXV), and the Small Catechism.
2. Seek out a trustworthy pastor who will be willing to serve as a confessor and who will be able to be available for one's individual confession regularly and frequently.
3. Prepare to make individual confession by examining one's personal life and relationship with God and others in the light of the Ten Commandments. Also helpful are the penitential Psalms (6, 32, 38, 51, 102, 130, 143) and the Prayer of Manasseh in the Apocrypha.
4. In preparation for hearing the confession of others, make regular and frequent use of Confession and Absolution, keep confidences, so as to be worthy of the trust of others, read and reflect on the Holy Scriptures so as to provide a reservoir of passages with which to comfort consciences and strengthen the faith of penitents (see FC, SD XI.28-32).
5. Both as penitent and confessor, refrain from extraneous conversation so that attention is centered on the penitent's confession of sins, the Absolution or forgiveness of sins, and the confessor's use of Scripture passages which comfort the conscience and encourage faith in the Word of God which absolves; refrain from challenging or evaluating the confession; use the order of Confession and Absolution of the Small Catechism or that of the service books of the Church.
6. As absolved penitents, expect to be held accountable by the confessor for reconciliation with those whom we have offended and restoration of what we have taken or broken.
7. Confession and Absolution is a sacramental rite of the Church (AP XII.4) and therefore is normally conducted in church buildings where provision can be made for privacy and confidentiality.
Since Confession and Absolution has fallen into disuse among many of us, its restoration demands utmost care and concern for both penitent and confessor. Introduction to and initial use of Confession and Absolution may call for simply following the order of Confession and Absolution lest the penitent worry about a full enumeration of sins or the confessor about comforting and encouraging with passages of Scripture.
Time for private Confession is a part of every Chapter and General Retreat.
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