Atheoligical Tendency ~Open~

One Living Truth Ministries ^ | Oct 2006 | Ministry news letter

[Graybeard58]

Mormons focus on accessible, social aspects of their religion. Although the Mormon system of doctrine is genuinely attractive to many of its members, many have argued that the primary "glue" of Mormonism is the heritage, culture, and family ties, not the doctrine and theology.

In other words, the typical allegiance to the Mormon organization primarily stems from something other than doctrinal concerns. The average Mormon sitting in a pew does not care how or why their religion works, they only care that it works for them.

They are not concerned with the real character of Joseph Smith or how the LDS scriptures coincide with biblical teachings. A common element often overlooked when Christians share their faith with Latter-day Saints is that many Mormons are not Mormon merely for doctrinal reasons. This view of not being concerned with theology is considered to be atheological. If a person does not care about their theology, they miss the importance of rooting their entire life in the true knowledge of God and a coherent, rational, theological worldview.

A person's relationship with God is built on the foundation of what one believes about God and what it means to be right with God. This is the most important determining factor in shaping the way a person lives.

An atheological person does not seriously reflect on their own foundational worldview assumptions (e.g., what is truth, who is God, does this matter?), nor do they see how doing so would be relevant to everyday life.

South Park, a fictional, satirical cartoon, depicted a Mormon named "Gary" with the following words:

"Look, maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense. And maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up. But I have a great life and a great family and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don’t care if Joseph Smith made it all up. Because what the church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that’s stupid, I still choose to believe in it."

Grey Echols, a Mormon, writes the following in a review of By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus:

"This is a well written book which manages to not push an 'anti-Mormon' agenda. However as an LDS I do not think others should read it. Why? Because it could destroy your faith in the church. I am not trying to be clever. If you enjoy all of the good things the church has brought into your life, do you care where it came from?

No other church has so short a history that it can be examined so closely by science. Otherwise we would find that they are all created on the backs of con-artist. I am willing to bet every religion was founded by a fraud. So who cares. Does religion bring us together? Does it bond a nation, a town, a family? If so then let it be.

The truth is fleeting, and life is short. If believing in Santa makes children smile then believing in God makes adults smile. When children find out Santa isn't real, you kill a certain spark you can never get back. When you expose a church as a fraud, you kill a little spark in all of us."

[colorcountry]

We must be quite a threat to them over at COB (Church Office Builidng) that they would send so many apologists over here. It’s quite an honor to be known as an enemy of Mormonism. As a Christian and an ex-cult member, I proudly wear that badge.

“I am telling the truth because I belong to the Messiah-I am not lying, and my conscience confirms it by means of the Holy Spirit.” (Romans 9:1)

[greyfoxx39]

I stand rebuked...

You asked for it!

......You are a son of perdition and an apostate and "I REBUKE YOU BY MY PRIESTHOOD!.....What are you going to do when you are in outer darkness and you look up to see Joseph Smith's face shining brighter than the noonday sun?"

[ejonesie22]

But of course...

[ejonesie22]

Like my friend said, the LDS will not survive the information age.

[fproy2222]

I marked in bold where you were saying both Smith and Paul's DIRECT work, again apples to apples...

I can't see why this is hard, but I understand, your training runs long and deep, heavy on the rhetoric, very, very lite on the logic...
+++++++++++++++++++++

You seem not to get the idea that your assumptions are no good without using BOTH Joseph Smith’s writings AND THE WRITTINGS OF OTHERS, as a compression to Paul's writings alone.

You and yours keep saying that something written second hand by someone else is as if it was written by Joseph.

How many of the accounts, that you use as evidence that Brother Joseph contradicted himself, were written by Br. Joseph, and how many were written by someone else.

What contractions can you find in the first hand accounts written by Joseph Smith?

[ejonesie22]

I saw that the other day, about busted a gut...

[colorcountry]

I’m afraid I disagree with your friend. There are too many in Mormonism who will overlook the truth in order to believe the lie.

But have you noticed, it isn’t Christians who are changing to become closer in line with Mormonism, but it is Mormonism that is forced (because of the internet and such) to adopt Christian ideas. Perhaps the Mormon so-called Church will move closer and closer to Christ until they finally are in line with Him.

[greyfoxx39]

I see the Thin skinned thread-killer has shown up for duty. Prepare for lock-down.

[fproy2222]

I stand rebuked...
You asked for it!

......You are a son of perdition and an apostate and “I REBUKE YOU BY MY PRIESTHOOD!.....What are you going to do when you are in outer darkness and you look up to see Joseph Smith's face shining brighter than the noonday sun?”
++++++++++++++++

I saw it to, and I know some dumb bishops, but this guy was so dumb he could not have been a bishop.

Rush Limbaugh would call him a “seminary caller”.

[colorcountry]

Fred, can you relate briefly here, what happened during the “first vision?”

You can link or copy and paste from the official site if you wish.

[ejonesie22]

Sigh...

I am not looking at any accounts, I am not looking at any of the points, I am not there yet.

The simple fact you say you or whomever is comparing (this from YOUR OWN POSTING), the DRIECT WRTITTING of the two men give them equal weighing no matter the inherent argument or addition of non first hand information.

It is just the simple logic of you own statement that I am concerned with. Comparing the DIRCT writings of the two men is apples and apples, and that does not satisfy you.

Oh well, I should learn that logic matters not, for if it did there would be no issues to begin with, for there would be no LDS to argue about.

[greyfoxx39]

Well, he said he was “in” the bishopric...maybe just the ward clerk? The first time I heard it, I thought it was pretty dumb, too, but there HAVE been some posters on this forum that I could picture saying these things. Present company excepted, of course. ;) The ones I am thinking of are gone.

[ejonesie22]

I find that satisfying as well. Surrender means victory...

[ejonesie22]

That is true, there will be the hold out zealots for whom no logic or truth will dissuade. After all there are Pagans and Wiccans amongst us as well...

[Elsie]

I am not tearing down the Bible.

Technically true; as it's the Organization to which you belong doing it.

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 #8

 

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Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

 

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

 

 

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
    
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 

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Definitions of creed:

• From the Latin word "credere" -- to believe. A short statement of religious belief, usually motivated by a desire to emphasize church teaching as opposed to a heresy.
• A formal summary of religious belief; an authoritative statement of doctrine
• Any system of principles or beliefs
• Religious doctrine: the written body of teachings of a religious group that are generally accepted by that group
• A creed is a statement or confession of belief — usually religious belief — or faith.
• A statement of religious beliefs agreed by the church to be true.
• A system of religious beliefs, including moral or ethical beliefs about right and wrong, that are sincerely held with the strength of traditional religious views.
• A statement of faith binding upon a given religious body.
• A statement of faith. 
• A formal statement of religious belief/proclamation of faith 

 

 

[MHGinTN]

Here's the chart again; you can see it again if you go back to post #123. Find the entries on the chart, especially #'s 3, 4, and 5 (*GRIN*):

 FIRST VISION:VARIOUS VERSIONS OF VISIONS  

Version Number  When  Published  Brief Description	Age  Year	Pillar   of  light	No. of  Person-  ages	Father  Present	Son  Present	Question:  Join What  Sect?	Remarks-References
1. Offical version,  written 1838,  first  Published 1842  (There are minor differences between the various source references, Ensign  Jan 1985, page 14)	14   1820	yes	2	yes  Both spoke	yes	Join none	Lucy, Hyrum, Samuel, Sophronia join the Presbyterian Church - JSH, pages 49-50, 1981 edition; Times & Seasons, March, April 1842; Ensign Jan. 1985, page 14; Joseph Smith's First Vision by Milton V. Backamn, Bookcraft, 1971, 1980, Appendix C, page 160f
2. Dictated by Smith to F.G. Williams, Summer to Nov. 1832	14 or 15	yes	1	no	yes  Saw Lord, He  "spoke"	No question, told "None doeth good", sins forgiven	Joseph Smith's First Vision, Appendix A, page 155f
3. Written by Smith, his 1832 diary, in his own hand	15	yes	1	no	yes  Saw the Lord Jesus  Christ	No question,  told sins forgiven, all do no good	Ensign, Dec. 1984, pages 24-26; ibid, Jan. 1985, page 11
4. Smith's diary of 1835, recorded by Warren Cowdery, Nov. 9, 1835, conversation of Smith with Joshua	About  14	yes	One, then another like unto first	?	?  Second spoke, saw  many angels	No questions, told sins forgiven, Jesus is Son	Joseph Smith's First Vision, Appen. B
5. Letter form Smith to John Wentworth, editor of Chicago Democrat	none	no	2	?  They spoke	?	No Question	Joseph Smith's  First Vision, Appendix D; Ensign, Jan 1985, page 16; Times & Seasons, Vol  3, pages 706-707, March 1, 1842
6. Early church leaders Brigham Young, G.A.Smith, John Taylor	15	no	1  Saw an angel, and asked the angel	no	no	Join none	See Journal of Discourses,   2:17; 18:239; 13:77, 78; 20:167; 12:333, 334.

[Elsie]

Are you misleading on purpose, or just following someone who is misleading you?

Yo! Dude!

Listen up!!

This here's my son: Listen to him!

[colorcountry]

fred is not tearing down the Bible? Well then, he is surely taking a different stance than the apostles of his organization in Mormonism.

“…who in his right mind, could for one moment, believe the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide? Who knows that even one verse has escaped pollution, so as to convey the same sense now that it did in the original?” (Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.47.)

“As all informed persons know, the various versions of the Bible do not accurately record or perfectly preserve the words, thoughts, and intents of the original inspired authors” (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.383).

“The infallibility of the Bible is a fundamental doctrine among Bible cultists, though by their own admission they cannot find a book, chapter, or verse within the Bible to sustain this doctrine. Infallibility and mortality are incompatible. We no more have infallible books than we have infallible men. Such a belief quickly leads to the ridiculous” (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Gospel Symbolism, p.232).

[Elsie]

You rely on second hand information and then infer that Brother Joseph wrote it.

Living Prophets® put out second hand info all the time and the Members lap it up like manna.

[MHGinTN]

Mayber this will help, resty-fred: