Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.
My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?
I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)
Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.
But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.
What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.
I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."
And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.
AN: It is not as accurate.
Thank you for having the integrity to recognize the truth.
AN: This is why the Fathers of the Church wrote a lot of material in addition to the canonical inspired scripture. To separate the canonical scripture formt he exegetical work of the Fathers is to discard the teachings of Christ in favor of traditions of the lead liars of the so-called "reformation".
The idea that you would try to include those that came after the NT was written and equate their writings as of equal importance is without merit on it's face. You aren't claiming their writings were "God Breathed" are you?
If these theologians who wrote after the Inspired writings had been penned were not inspired, how were they different then those who wrote later?
The courts have written much after the Constitution was penned. Somehow I think you'd have to go over to DU to find anyone who thinks that turned out well.
If your interpretation is correct, the God is also a plain liar. God lies because He does not finish what He started:
Phil 1:6 : ... being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
God lies because He will fail to rescue us from every evil attack:
2 Tim 4:18 : The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
God lies because His work can now be undone:
Eccl 3:14 : I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him.
God lies because He loses sheep:
John 10:27-29 : 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
God lies because what He ordains does not stand:
John 15:16 : 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. KJV
These are just a few examples. I really COULD go on for a long time. All of these lies of God result from the Catholic plain meaning view of the instant passage. From here, the Church must reinterpret all the perseverance verses I listed and all the ones I could list. This process simultaneously occurs over many issues. The effects are exponential until finally most of the Bible has been reinterpreted to match tradition. But of course, the reinterpretations all are plain meanings. :)
***All the evidence, including much of Hebrews, says that it is possible for believers to fall away. [Excerpts from Heb. 2, 3, 4] ...... If we are disobedient to God we will fall. If only the elite are saved, then all these exhortations are worthless. The Reformed elite cannot fail; therefore why speak of ‘so that no one may fall’?
First of all, I am assuming you are only talking about falling away permanently. Of course I would agree that all Christians fall away temporarily during their Christian lives. Anyway, the passages from Hebrews are all true and correct, IF we fail to persevere we do not go to Heaven. But if we let scripture interpret scripture God elsewhere tells us that He will not let that happen for the elect. God keeps His promises. He is either in control or He is not. IOW, the passages you cite state the truth that God does not save irrespective of perseverance. However, elsewhere we find out where that perseverance comes from. Even Hebrews helps us here:
Heb 10:13-14 : 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Heb 13:20-21 : 20 May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
What is the answer to this prayer, will God do it? Reformers say absolutely YES and Catholics say absolutely NO, or only sometimes. That's the problem, in Reformed theology the passages you cited and the ones I did are in harmony, but in Catholicism they strongly conflict.
Jesus Christ incarnated acted within time. God is extra-temporal. All time for Him is in an instant.
Oh, this could be big. :) Does this mean you think that God does NOT act within time now, since Christ is not here incarnate?
We know that God does not go away and leave His Creation alone. Yet we also know that God has given us free will. Therefore what we do with our free will is ours.
Do you think you know what is best for you better than God does? If you do then you should be in control, just as you appear to believe you are. If, however, God knows better, then why wouldn't you WANT Him to be in charge and directing you? We put ourselves into the hands of professionals every day who have knowledge and abilities we do not, so why wouldn't that apply to spiritual matters?
Finish. Plan. All human things.
No, God speaks of His plans.
Num 33:56 : And then I will do to you what I plan to do to them.'"
1 Chron 28:12, 19 : 12 He gave him the plans of all that the Spirit had put in his mind for the courts of the temple of the Lord and all the surrounding rooms, for the treasuries of the temple of God and for the treasuries for the dedicated things. ...... 19 "All this," David said, "I have in writing from the hand of the Lord upon me, and he gave me understanding in all the details of the plan ."
Job 23:14 : He carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in store.
Ps 33:11 : But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.
Isa 14:26-27 : 26 This is the plan determined for the whole world; this is the hand stretched out over all nations. 27 For the Lord Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?
Jer 29:11 : For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.
Amos 3:7 : Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.
Eph 1:11-12 : 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.
It could not be more clear that God has plans that He executes within time. We are even told that He reveals them to us, and He does in the scriptures.
The writings of the Church Fathers do not serve the same purpose as inspired and canonical scripture. Their role is to illustrate how the Early Church, build by the apostles and their immediate spiritual heirs understood the scripture that at some point became controversial.
For example, from the Fathers we see that the Church was highly hierarchical and sacramental; that salvation was understood as a process rather than one time event; that veneration of saints was encouraged by the Church.
This witness of the Early Church is infinitely more valuable than the ravings of Luther, Calvin, or Joel Osteen is due to the fact that the fathers - St. Irenaeus, St. Ignatius, St. Justin Martyr and others argued from what they learned from the Apostles and from the previous generations, when people 1500 years later could only argue from the spin they put on the scripture and their sociopolitical biases. The leaders of the Reformation lost contact with the Sacred Deposit of Faith and for that reason their interpretation of the scripture is incoherent.
You have made an argument aginst the Reformation. Was that your intention?
“You have made an argument aginst the Reformation. Was that your intention?”
Probably not the intention of the writer, but nontheless, a good argument lol.
lol. So you’ve got no rebuttal.
Not at all.
In my analogy the Constitution reigns supreme. Conversly it is the Catholic church that are like the liberal courts, giving lip service to the Constitution (Bible) while running amok. I suppose that thinking is what draws so many Catholics to the Democratic party.
And the foundations of the wall of the city [were] garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation [was] jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. – Revelation 21:19-20
To God be the glory!
The arguments about the US Constitution get resolved in conservative’s favor by looking at the original intent of the framers of the Constitution. In order to do so one has to examine the Federalist Papers, their memoirs, their letters, etc. just like the Catholic Church resolves disputes about the scripture by looking at what St. Irenaeus, St. Ignatius, St. Cyprian, St. Justin Martyr and others wrote in 1-3c. You guys are innovators, not us.
Sola Scriptura is a superstition that contradicts the Holy Inerrant Inspired Scripture.
***The arguments about the US Constitution get resolved in conservative’s favor by looking at the original intent of the framers of the Constitution.***
So why is abortion legal and why does Kerry have communion with the Pope officiating?
Talk is cheap my FRiend.
I live, dear lady, amongst several rivers.. Alaskan rivers.. all of which have a bottom composed of rounded rocks of every sort.. A walk along the river is a walk over millions maybe trillions or some other massive number of small rounded stones..
Have you ever been around a rock tumbler?.. A rock tumbler will tumble the rocks in a very hard medium and polish them.. it takes days but it will polish the hardest stone.. Polished to be shiny and glassy showing all mannar of "character".. both clear and opaque.. of every color and tint of color..
Thats what comes to my mind on this conversation.. Those rocks "tumbled" are quite beautiful.. ALL OF THEM.. Rocks of every color and stripe of color shape, weight and clarity.. They look very dull in the river but tumbled.. "polished".. they are "precious".. in essense if not in value.. I have often wondered what a river of tumbled rocks would show..
This human life surely must be a "tumbler".. tumbling us all..
I found in my ALaskan adventures a veritable mountain of Jade.. Alaskan jade.. which has streaks of white running through it.. some dark green some light green some almost clear but still green.. and the streams and streamlettes running down it has jade rocks has their base.. I have been looking for a rock tumbler to buy so I can go to my nearest river bed and gather prospective "rocks" to tumble.. Why?.. just to see how they turn out.. For several years I've wondered what some of them(rocks) would look like(tumbled).. as I walked along the river bed.. and looked at the nearest mountains.. You know just to get out of the house..
I think I will go out and do it(buy a tumbler).. AFter all what is a precious stone?.. Except a stone precious to you.. The act of selecting rocks to tumble seems pregnant with meaning to me.. An adventure in the selection of them and "the unveiling" in the observation of them tumbled, after several/many days.. Some of these threads are like a tumbler.. polishing various stones.. WHich of them is most precious?.. LOL.. Whos to say.. Even granite polished is most beautiful.. as many American kitchens display.. beneath the kitchen cabinets..
Betcha never heard that Jesus was a Catholic either...
I truly hope so. That’s my prayer.
I don’t understand how the question about abortion and Kerry relates to the fact that the framers of the constitution are to be consulted same as the framers of the Church are to be consulted.
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