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To: wmfights; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; OLD REGGIE; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Quix

The writings of the Church Fathers do not serve the same purpose as inspired and canonical scripture. Their role is to illustrate how the Early Church, build by the apostles and their immediate spiritual heirs understood the scripture that at some point became controversial.

For example, from the Fathers we see that the Church was highly hierarchical and sacramental; that salvation was understood as a process rather than one time event; that veneration of saints was encouraged by the Church.

This witness of the Early Church is infinitely more valuable than the ravings of Luther, Calvin, or Joel Osteen is due to the fact that the fathers - St. Irenaeus, St. Ignatius, St. Justin Martyr and others argued from what they learned from the Apostles and from the previous generations, when people 1500 years later could only argue from the spin they put on the scripture and their sociopolitical biases. The leaders of the Reformation lost contact with the Sacred Deposit of Faith and for that reason their interpretation of the scripture is incoherent.


2,944 posted on 08/14/2008 1:17:27 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

from the Fathers we see that the Church was highly hierarchical and sacramental;

= = =

UNMITIGATED BALDERDASH.

Scripture makes clear enough that is a pile of stinking

!!!!TRADITIONS!!!! of men.


2,966 posted on 08/14/2008 8:17:15 PM PDT by Quix (key QUOTES POLS 1900 ON #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: annalex; Alex Murphy; blue-duncan; BnBlFlag; Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; Forest Keeper; ...
The UNRUBBERIZED

histories make abundantly clear that the early church characters were spinning quite a number of revolutions per minute . . .

and all the faster and more erratically the more political power they gained backed up for their power-mongering committees by more and more troops . . . . particularly . . .

in the region of . . . Jerusalem?

NOPE . . .

Athens? . . .

NOPE . . .

Alexandria? . . .

NOPE . . .

Istanbul? . . .

NOPE . . .

St Petersburg? . . .

Nope . . .

Corinth? . . .

Nope . . .

Sicily?

Nope . . .

Madrid? . . .

Nope . . .

Paris? . . .

Monoco? . . .

Nope . . .

Antioch?

Nope . . .

. . .

Rome?

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

DINGO!

2,967 posted on 08/14/2008 8:26:22 PM PDT by Quix (key QUOTES POLS 1900 ON #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: annalex; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; OLD REGGIE; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Quix
The writings of the Church Fathers do not serve the same purpose as inspired and canonical scripture.

Thanks be to God!

Days like today are what all this contentiousness is worth. You have kindly responded that oral transmission of information is not as accurate as written documents. You have acknowledged that the Scriptures are God Breathed. You have acknowledged that the writings of those theologians that came after the Scriptures were written did not write God Breathed documents. In your honest answers you have illustrated why Scripture must stand Alone .

For example, from the Fathers we see that the Church was highly hierarchical and sacramental; that salvation was understood as a process rather than one time event; that veneration of saints was encouraged by the Church.

You have given a great example of what happens when you value the opinions of those who came later rather than Scripture.

Why would the opinions of these theologians have any greater weight than the opinions of theologians who came even later? In both cases we are looking at uninspired writings and opinion. It would seem the most rational, serious, sober approach would be to measure what their opinions were against the one source we know is God Breathed, the Scriptures.

2,988 posted on 08/15/2008 9:37:01 AM PDT by wmfights (Believe - THE GOSPEL - and be saved)
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To: annalex; wmfights; Forest Keeper; OLD REGGIE; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Quix; Marysecretary; enat; ...
For example, from the Fathers we see...that salvation was understood as a process rather than one time event

In this one sentence, we find the greatest error of Rome from which all other errors flow.

The New Testament is brimming with the declared truth that salvation has been accomplished by Christ on behalf of His flock. There is no ongoing "process" of men atoning for their own sins because Christ has atoned for those sins ONCE for all time. He has paid the price in full. The ransom has been delivered to God and God has accepted the payment of "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," and thus, the accounts of Christ's sheep have been marked "paid-in-full."

Thank you, God. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

OTOH, Rome seeks to insinuate itself between God and men as the arbiter of men's salvation, handing out bits and pieces of it according to men's own work. Any reading of Scripture refutes this deadly error that gives men the credit for their salvation which rightly belongs to God alone.

Rome obscures the difference between justification and sanctification, wrongly melding the two into a works-based salvation. Instead, the Bible tells us our justification by Christ's atonement is complete, while our sanctification by the Holy Spirit in our lives is an ongoing process of refinement as we are brought closer to God day by day.

We offer Scripture in support of this, and all Rome responds with is various and variable "church fathers."

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." -- Hebrews 10:12-18

Further, Rome not only confuses sanctification and justification, it likewise confuses "payment" for sins with "sorrow" for sins. Men are given by the Holy Spirit the desire and ability to repent for their sins, all the while still knowing Christ has already paid for those sins in full.

Thus our remorse. Thus our gratitude. Thus our confidence in our redemption by Christ's sacrifice alone. He has accomplished what we could not.

"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." -- Matthew 9:13

Obviously Rome hasn't learned this yet. And this ignorance is why Trent curses all those who believe they have been justified by their God-given faith alone, and therefore have confidence in their salvation by Christ risen from the cross. Rome doesn't believe in the accomplished work of Christ. Rome denies the accomplished work of Christ and labors to augment it with the baubles and trinkets of men's vain imaginings. As if Christ's perfect, God-ordained death and resurrection needed the gaudy, gilded ornamentation and careless red paint Rome slathers onto the empty cross.

2,991 posted on 08/15/2008 10:49:29 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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