Posted on 06/23/2008 11:51:24 AM PDT by Sopater
WASHINGTON - America remains a deeply religious nation, but a new survey finds most Americans don't believe their tradition is the only way to eternal life -- even if the denomination's teachings say otherwise. The findings, revealed Monday in a survey of 35,000 adults, can either be taken as a positive sign of growing religious tolerance, or disturbing evidence that Americans dismiss or don't know fundamental teachings of their own faiths.
Among the more startling numbers in the survey, conducted last year by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life: 57 percent of evangelical church attenders said they believe many religions can lead to eternal life, in conflict with traditional evangelical teaching. In all, 70 percent of Americans with a religious affiliation shared that view, and 68 percent said there is more than one true way to interpret the teachings of their own religion.
"The survey shows religion in America is, indeed, 3,000 miles wide and only three inches deep," said D. Michael Lindsay, a Rice University sociologist of religion. "There's a growing pluralistic impulse toward tolerance and that is having theological consequences," he said.
Earlier data from the Pew Forum's U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, released in February, highlighted how often Americans switch religious affiliation. The newly released material looks at religious belief and practice as well as the impact of religion on society, including how faith shapes political views. The report argues that while relatively few people -- 14 percent -- cite religious beliefs as the main influence on their political thinking, religion still plays a powerful indirect role.
The study confirmed some well-known political dynamics, including stark divisions over abortion and same-sex "marriage," with the more religiously committed taking conservative views on the issues. But it also showed support across religious lines for greater governmental aid for the poor, even if it means more debt and stricter environmental laws and regulations.
By many measures, Americans are strongly religious: 92 percent believe in God, 74 percent believe in life after death, and 63 percent say their respective scriptures are the word of God. But deeper investigation found that more than one in four Roman Catholics, mainline Protestants, and Orthodox Christians expressed some doubts about God's existence, as did six in ten Jews. Another finding almost defies explanation: 21 percent of self-identified atheists said they believe in God or a universal spirit, with eight percent "absolutely certain" of it.
"Look, this shows the limits of a survey approach to religion," said Peter Berger, a theology and sociology professor at Boston University. "What do people really mean when they say that many religions lead to eternal life? It might mean they don't believe their particular truth at all. Others might be saying, 'We believe a truth but respect other people, and they are not necessarily going to hell.'" Luis Lugo, director of the Pew Forum, said that more research is planned to answer those kinds of questions, but that earlier, smaller surveys found similar results.
Nearly across the board, the majority of religious Americans believe many religions can lead to eternal life: mainline Protestants (83 percent), members of historic black Protestant churches (59 percent), Roman Catholics (79 percent), Jews (82 percent) and Muslims (56 percent). By similar margins, people in those faith groups believe in multiple interpretations of their own traditions' teachings. Yet 44 percent of the religiously affiliated also said their religion should preserve its traditional beliefs and practices.
"What most people are saying is, 'Hey, we don't have a hammer-lock on God or salvation, and God's bigger than us and we should respect that and respect other people,'" said the Rev. Tom Reese, a senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University. "Some people are like butterflies that go from flower to flower, going from religion to religion -- and frankly they don't get that deep into any of them," he said.
Beliefs about eternal life vary greatly, even within a religious tradition. Some Christians hold strongly to Jesus' words as described in John 14:6: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Others emphasize the wideness of God's grace. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the "one church of Christ ... subsists in the Catholic Church" alone and that Protestant churches, while defective, can be "instruments of salvation."
Roger Oldham, a vice president with the executive committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, bristled at using the word "tolerance" in the analysis. "If by tolerance we mean we're willing to engage or embrace a multitude of ways to salvation, that's no longer evangelical belief," he said. "The word 'evangelical' has been stretched so broadly, it's almost an elastic term."
Others welcomed the findings. "It shows increased religious security. People are comfortable with other traditions even if they're different," said the Rev. C. Welton Gaddy, president of the Interfaith Alliance. "It indicates a level of humility about religion that would be of great benefit to everyone."
More than most groups, Catholics break with their church, and not just on issues like abortion and homosexuality. Only six in ten Catholics described God as "a person with whom people can have a relationship" -- which the church teaches -- while three in ten described God as an "impersonal force."
"The statistics show, more than anything else, that many who describe themselves as Catholics do not know or understand the teachings of their church," said Denver Roman Catholic Archbishop Charles Chaput. "Being Catholic means believing what the Catholic church teaches. It is a communion of faith, not simply of ancestry and family tradition. It also means that the church ought to work harder at evangelizing its own members."
Amen. Calvinist?
Nothing vain about reading the Bible and knowing what's in it...
"That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?" -- John 12:38
"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" -- Romans 1:17-18
"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God." -- 1 Corinthians 2:10 "In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight." -- Luke 10:21
Read Ephesians 3 and see what's revealed...
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him." -- Ephesians 3:1-12"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
Or my personal favorite...
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen." -- Romans 16:25-27."Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
LOL. Hi, Corin! How’s your son doing?
>> I was commenting on the same brand of Protestantism which Gamecock spoke of when he said:
>> The cause of this universalist view is the decline of doctrinal teaching in churches today, the very thing many of us on the GRPL have been railing against for years. Doctrine doesn’t matter we have been told. Do what it takes to get people in the door. Dumb down the service. Talk to people where they are. Smile a lot. Don’t talk about sin. Just tell them God loves them, period.
Clearly neither you, nor Gamecock, has been to a Protestant church in my neck of the woods. Sure, there are those Protestant churches that deemphasize sin in favor of comfort — there are also Catholic churches that ordain Preists with certain sexual proclivities that would preclude a true understanding of sin.
I don’t paint with a broad brush by presuming that Catholic theology condones homosexuality (or worse) simply because of the behavior of a few Priests, and neither should you presume that the existence of a few more lighthearted Protestant churchgoing experiences dictates the theology of the Protestant Church at large.
H
Hi yourself!
Well, the 19-year-old had less than a spectacular year in community college. But, assuming he passed his drug test (and he should as long as it didn’t involve ~spelling~ urinalysis) he’s about to get a full time job. Much needed because he’s also buying a new (used) car today (his other one gave up the ghost).
In contrast, the 8-year old is asking how Voyager 2 got through the asteroid belt and why he doesn’t have opposable toes.
Thus, life is many things, but never dull.
How’re you doing?
Are you a Calvinist?
No kidding.
Beliefs are not the same as theology. I should not claim that Protestants believe Jesus was a liar when he called Simon "Rock" and upon this Rock, etc. Maybe you believe he lied, maybe you believe he referenced Peter's declaration of faith, maybe you believe the same as Catholics. I have no idea. You were describing Catholic belief, and were incorrect, so I corrected you.
Now, if you said Catholic theology relies too heavily on the Greeks, or is too convoluted for God, you'd be describing my theology, and I would argue with you, and we might actually get somewhere. Argue with me, tell me why the Rick Warren theology isn't shallow - I never once commented on your belief.
Generally speaking, we shallow Protestants do not take our theology from the NYT bestsellers list. Its just a book, slick.
You'll notice my post said some branches of Protestantism. And clearly, if it is on the NYT bestsellers list, and the people reading it are not Catholic or Orthodox, then it is Protestant theology. No need to call me slick.
LOL! Employment is good.
the 8-year old is asking how Voyager 2 got through the asteroid belt
Ask him how anyone gets through the Van Allen belt. That's the real question. 8~)
and why he doesn't have opposable toes.
Because his toes will get along with each other until he hits 40. Around then they turn on each other.
We're fine. Hot.
>>> Catholicism requires a go-between (of sorts) between the human and the divine ... such as a Priest or the Pope.... But — I am not a Catholic, so I cannot state with certainty exactly what a Catholic believes.
>> No kidding.
Point taken.
I do have a question, though ... and this is an honest question, not an “a-ha, gotcha” thing. Why do Catholics confess to a Priest? As a Protestant, I confess transgressions directly. Why the middle-man?
H
I don’t paint with a broad brush by presuming that Catholic theology condones homosexuality (or worse) simply because of the behavior of a few Priests, and neither should you presume that the existence of a few more lighthearted Protestant churchgoing experiences dictates the theology of the Protestant Church at large.
Teaching and actions are two different things. Yes, there were homosexuals ordained. That was wrong. The Church has never taught it was correct. You just admitted that some Protestants TEACH what I called "me-and-Jesus" theology (you claim it is deemphasising sin and emphasising comfort). And what the heck is the "Protestant Church at large"? Is that Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, Methodists, Shakers, Baptists, etc. all coming together?
AMEN BROTHER AND GRACE TO ALL THE SAINTS!
THE PROBLEM WITH DOCTRINAL WEAKNESS STARTS IN THE SEMINARIES AND WORKS IT’S WAY DOWN THROUGH THE PULPIT INTO THE PEWS.MAYBE 5 U.S. SEMINARIES ARE TRULEY REFORMED AND NO WRITTEN STATEMENT OF FAITH AT A SCHOOL OR CHURCH WILL LET YOU KNOW WHAT IS ACTUALLY BEING TAUGHT.THE VAST DENOMINATION RANGE ALLOWS MOST TO PICK AND CHOOSE DOCTRINE,LIKE A CHRISTIAN BUFFET.
THERE NEEDS TO BE GOVERNANCE LIKE THIS WEEK’S 177TH SYNOD.
THE UNDER SHEPHERD WHO LETS A FLOCK WITH SOFT BELLIES PICK WHAT GARBAGE THEY WANT TO EAT,INSTEAD OF LEADING THEN TO SWEET GRACE HAY WILL BE SEVERLY JUDGED,I BELIEVE THERE WILL BE MUCH COLLATERAL DAMAGE AT THE JUDGEMENT SEAT!
Matthew 7:13
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Matthew 7:14
“Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Matthew 7:15
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Matthew 7:16
“You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
Matthew 7:17
“Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Matthew 7:18
“A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
Matthew 7:19
“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matthew 7:20
“Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Matthew 7:22
“Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
Matthew 7:23
“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
(NKJV)
5 SOLAS AND 66 POINTS!
I couldn't agree more, and I always try and tread lightly on this forum. However, both sides firmly believe they are right, and then egos and the anonymity of the internet lead to what you see before you.
The Council of Trent (1551) declares:Here is the Gospel of John:As a means of regaining grace and justice, penance was at all times necessary for those who had defiled their souls with any mortal sin. . . . Before the coming of Christ, penance was not a sacrament, nor is it since His coming a sacrament for those who are not baptized. But the Lord then principally instituted the Sacrament of Penance, when, being raised from the dead, he breathed upon His disciples saying: 'Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained' (John 20:22-23). By which action so signal and words so clear the consent of all the Fathers has ever understood that the power of forgiving and retaining sins was communicated to the Apostles and to their lawful successors, for the reconciling of the faithful who have fallen after Baptism. (Sess. XIV, c. i)Farther on the council expressly states that Christ left priests, His own vicars, as judges (praesides et judices), unto whom all the mortal crimes into which the faithful may have fallen should be revealed in order that, in accordance with the power of the keys, they may pronounce the sentence of forgiveness or retention of sins" (Sess. XIV, c. v)
Joh 20:19 Now when it was late the same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them: Peace be to you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.
Joh 20:22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
Joh 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
>> Yes, there were homosexuals ordained. That was wrong. The Church has never taught it was correct.
Not according to the President of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops —
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/29/AR2005112901852.html
“If that [pastoral charity] becomes paramount in his ministry, even though he might have a homosexual orientation, then he can minister and he can minister celibately and chastely.”
Thus, according to Bishop William Skylstad, Priests with homosexual proclivities are absolutely acceptable, so long as they’re celibate.
>> You just admitted that some Protestants TEACH what I called “me-and-Jesus” theology (you claim it is deemphasising sin and emphasising comfort).
I admitted to the existence of more lighthearted services. I never admitted the existence of a shallow Protestant theology.
>> And what the heck is the “Protestant Church at large”? Is that Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, Methodists, Shakers, Baptists, etc. all coming together?
I wasn’t the one who made the sweeping generalization to a shallow Protestant theology. I wasn’t the one who initially lumped Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, etc. together into one shallow bunch. I simply accepted your premise that Protestants could be viewed as a single unit.
H
At what point though does it become the majority that reflects the consequences of church teaching? 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%?
If they only person who really believed and understood the Catholic faith was the Pope, would that still be the “Catholic Church”, while everybody else was just wrong?
My point is that we do have arguments about whether the Catholic Church tends to lead to people feeling separated from God. Those here vehemently deny the suggestion.
This survey suggests that 60% of those who call themselves Catholics feel otherwise. Now, I can believe that 60% of the Catholic Church isn’t well-versed in their own belief system, but 60% is a rather large number of people, and must include at least SOME who regularly attend church and actually stay awake, which would suggest that for a significant number of the faithful, they aren’t getting the message that people here say is the correct Catholic message.
If I were in the Church, I would take a survey like this as a sign that some additional work was needed to train the people of my Church correctly, assuming the 60% are incorrect in their feelings about the Church.
There are some whose purpose here seems to be repeated posting of falsehoods about the Catholic Church. Since the false nature of the various claims has been demonstrated over and over, those falsehoods are now knowingly false, i.e.: lies.
If your uncle on Oak St., in Pocatello, Idaho gives you and I directions to his house, and we follow them dutifully, we will both ultimately end up on Oak St., in Pocatello...the "one true way." The fact of the matter is, our directions up to that point may vary considerably.
It has been my observation, supported I think by reason, that an omnipresent and universal GOD is discovered and revealed to different people in different ways, at different points in their lives.
While CS Lewis is widely regarded as one of the premier Christian apologists of the 20th Century, perhaps his most controversial passage is found in, "The Last Battle," and it's one I've pondered at length and has impressed me deeply. In an apocalyptic, final judgement setting, a Calormene prince who was a man of virtue brought up in a false tradition of worship (Tash)finds himself face to face with Aslan...
“So I went over much grass and many flowers and among all kinds of wholesome and delectable trees till lo! in a narrow place between two rocks there came to meet me a great Lion. The speed of him was like the ostrich, and his size as an elephant’s; his hair was like pure gold and the brightness of his eyes like gold that is liquid in the furnace. He was more terrible than the Flaming Mountain of Lagour, and in beauty he surpassed all that is in the world even as the rose in bloom surpasses the dust of the desert. Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child? I said, Lord, though knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless they desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what the truly seek."
Certainly it's fiction and not holy writ, but after much reflection, I don't find it at all inconsistent with any aspect of my faith.
Fair enough.
It is this Catholic tenet from which I derived my interpretation that Catholic belief requires a medium in order for transgressions to be forgiven. Like I said, I could certainly be wrong — and, like you said, I probably am.
H
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