Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
INDEED.
See, you’re not even trying. What’s the point?
So do you or do you not deny that the Roman church was a corrupt political oligarchy at the time of The Reformation?
Formulated the way you have, presuming you are referring to the Catholic Church, there’s no need to deny it. It’s false.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
That doesn't sit too well with Acts 1:17 "For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry."
There is no discrepancy.
Well gee, thanks for clearing that up. "I'm writing to you to watch out for those that can't harm you anyway" make sense now that you've explained it better....
Sorry, sounds like the "little children" he was writing to were actually church leaders to me. And as you can't disprove my understanding using Sola, you can't mandate yours, either.
The insinuation that I lie like Goebbels is very personal.
Last time that one called me a liar, I was suspended for complaining about it.
ping to the post you were asking about.
Acts 1:17 is directly on point: “obtained part of this ministry.”
ping
Neither of those two scriptures mention an institutional church or hierarchy, in fact, in the Matthew 18 passage the church Jesus describes is an informal (”where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst”) assembly.
“The same could be said for the doctrine of the Trinity”
Although “Trinity” is not stated the doctrine is explicit in the scriptures. The one, institutional, hierarchical church is not. There were many “churches” mentioned in the scriptures, some with elders, some with prophet-teachers, some democratic and some anarchical. some highly ritualistic and some just teaching churches. There was no central controlling body or person in the early churches as witness Paul’s problems in Corinth and in his letter to the Philippian church.
“This passage is silent on apostolic succession, as you well know”
I don't remember Apollos being an Apostle.
ping
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Please archive this one, too.
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Let me know if she’d like some heirloom tomato seeds. I’m quite willing to share some from each of 20 or more varieties.
Thanks tons. You are certainly welcome.
Not at all sure I do as you say. I just do what I can.
You hold your own in behalf of The Kingdom quite well, imho.
I deny the question has any more bearing on the rectitude of the reformers actions than David's anointing had on reign of Saul.
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