Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
I think the main problem with the snake handling . . . is that a proper Biblical stance on the Scripture neuters the rabid hostile comments from the rock throwers. I should have expected some whining about missing out on one of their favorite bucket of rocks.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
I’ve known poor folks go a lot more miles on a tank of gas than was humanly possible, too.
Indeed . . .
We don’t have any such hereon, that I’m aware of.
Is there now a new Mary doctrine about barking up the wrong tree?
From my observations and some of your own candid posts . . .
The ‘magisterium’ has NOT remotely prevented the various camps within the RC org from doing ‘their own thing.’
The divisions are merely glossed over or ignored unless and until they get so publically obnoxious as to demand attention. Then some pronouncement is made and things are glossed over again or the offenders are booted out.
Doesn’t seem much functionally different from the Protty camp except for the umbrella org’s management—seemingly more often for appearances and political reasons vs strictly Scriptural priorities.
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
It is natural to laugh at what one does not understand.
Praying in tongues?
John 16:13--He was speaking to first believers who were tasked with communicating to succeeding generations of believers that Holy Spirit would lead every believer accordingly.
2 Pet 3:15-16 reads like another very sobering exhortation well targeted to a host of RC hogwash.
There was NO militarily or otherwise supported political power-mongering group meeting in committee proclaiming itself fit to lord it over the rest of Christendom until around 400 AD. There was NO entity Christ had anything to do with sanctioning lording it over all Christendom before 400AD or since.
The whole little pebble pile of stinky White Hankies has been demonstrated to be utterly false, repeatedly and now here on this very thread.
The vast rest of the pile of cards is just as flakey on just as shakey grounds.
Paul wrote to believers everywhere. Believers everywhere have been taking his Scriptural words at face value, applying them in faith and seeing God confirm with signs following. ALL WITHOUT A CHIT OR A WHITE HANKY FROM ROME. God clearly disagrees with the perspective posted that I'm responding to.
>>>I still have never received an answer to one of my posts, oh somehwere between 80001 and now,ha.<<<
Hey! Me too.
I never got a reply as to whether or not a “prayer for relief” in a lawsuit is considered blasphemous.
The serpents and UFO thing is a chronic duo of buckets of rocks various RC’s have historically used to jab at me; discredit me; personally assault me. That’s the only reason such are mentioned on these threads.
Doesn’t have anything to do with logic or facts—which is—come to think of it—rather typical SOP for the RC org and reps, isn’t it.
As best I can tell, the Protestant definition of blasphemy is ANYTHING they disagree with.
He was speaking to His disciples, the first priests of the Catholic Church.
. . . BRAZENLY chiming in . . . to me . . .
1. Taking up my cross daily entails dealing redemptively, Biblically with Holy Spirit’s help . . . with my own flaws; the challenges around me in the world at large—the world, the flesh and the devil . . . by God’s grace, overcomingly.
2. ‘completing’ ‘sharing in’ the sufferings of Christ seems to be more mystical, somehow . . . but I have experienced in extreme suffering enormously greater identification with Christ’s sufferings that brought me perceptively closer to Him. And, I believe that suffering has allowed me to be more open to His Presence; more in tune with Him; more submitted to Him; to experience more of a reciprocal Something of His incarnation via the sufferings.
3. I don’t know that ‘work out our own salvation with fear and trembling’ is as mysterious or ‘out there’ as it might sound. The MESSAGE has it ‘keep on doing what you’ve been doing’ . . . I have to trust Peterson’s sense of that. He’s the scholar and I’m not.
However, to me, it means wrestling with my particular thrownness vis a vis the world, the flesh and the devil OVERCOMINGLY under Christ’s Blood with His Spirit’s enablement, guidance, help moment by moment, day by day.
my 2 cents.
Some of us knew it was a covert personal attack, anyway.
WE ARE NOT EVEN TAUGHT TO PRAY TO JESUS. We are taught to pray to God. You know, the “Our father who is in heaven...” thing.
To support my position, I offer the following:
#
John 14:13 – And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
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John 14:14 – If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
#
John 15:16 – Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
#
John 16:23 – And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
#
John 16:24 – Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
You will note a pattern here. Jesus INSTRUCTS us to pray to God and God will then provide.
“Beginning with Mans unique cooperation with the working of the Holy- Spirit, the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God” (Catechism 2675)
‘This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria” (Catechism 2676)
“Mary is the perfect Orans prayer, a figure of the Church. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father” (Catechism 2679)
LOL.
Sigh.
Good thing you're not talking about the Catholic Church.
Your UFO thing doesn’t have anything to do with logic or facts?
An excellent bit of progress there! Step into the light.
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