The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[John Leland 1789]

Every soul that has believed in the sufficiency of the Blood Sacrifice of Jesus Christ at Calvary as his only remedy for sin and only passport into God's presence has:

1. Eaten His flesh and drunk His Blood (John 6; etc.);
2. Been nailed to the Cross with Jesus Christ (Romans 6; Galatians 2:20; Colossians 3:1-4);
3. Been resurrected from the dead with Christ (Roams 6; Col. 2; etc.);
4. Been baptized by the Holy Spirit (not by a priest or minister)into Christ (1 Cor. 12:13; Col. 2:12; Ephesians 4:5);
5. Drunk into the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 12:13);
6. Had a circumcision performed on him by God Himself [”the operation {like surgery, eh?} of God”](Colossians 2:11, 12; Hebrews 4:12; etc)
7. Been sealed by the Holy Spirit.

We still live in a world of millions who, although we are plainly told that believers walk by faith and not by sight, tend to speak as though something that couldn't be seen or felt with the natural senses, didn't take place. God is not a “natural” God, but Supernatural.

All seven of the items listed are of Supernatural occurrence, and are known by faith.

[Mad Dawg]

I would suggest that "Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel, baptizing in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" pretty much nails down both catholic and apostolic as being at the core of what the Church is.

[Petronski]

4. Been baptized by the Holy Spirit (not by a priest or minister)into Christ

That part in parentheses occurs in Scripture where?

[markomalley]

Because the Bible alone is insufficient guidance for living the Christian life.

Although I probably would have probably not used those words, it is a very, very VALID point.

If the Bible ALONE were purely adequate without having the Church to provide the proper interpretation of the Revelation of God, then we would not have so many different sects out there, all of whom claim to have the proper understanding of the meaning and application of the Scriptures, none of whom agree fully upon what that meaning is.

• Some teach that baptism of infants is OK. Some teach that it isn't. All claim to follow the 5 solas.
• Some teach that baptism by infusion or immersion is valid. Some teach that only a full immersion is valid. All calim to follow the 5 solas.
• Some teach that speaking in tongues stopped after the age of the apostles...and that those who do so now are of the devil. Some teach that the only proof of the new birth is speaking in tongues. All claim to follow the 5 solas.
• Some teach that Christ is spiritually present in the communion. Some teach that communion is merely a memorial. All claim to follow the 5 solas.
• Some teach that it is OK to have ordination of women. Some teach that only a man can be ordained. Some teach that there is no such thing as ordination. All claim to follow the 5 solas.
• Some teach that women must have their heads covered. Others teach that it was only a cultural norm at the time. All claim to follow the 5 solas.
• Some teach that only vocal song is permitted in the church. Some teach that instrumentation is OK. All claim to follow the 5 solas.

Without an authority, we do not end up with one body, we end up with confusion, yet God is not a God of confusion but of peace. (1 Cor 14:33) Without an authority, who are any of us to say that even a perverse interpretation of the scriptures, such as the Jeremiah Wright version of the Bible, is not right? You may claim that the Holy Ghost gives you the authority, but I'd bet I could find somebody who disagrees with you but believes in Sola Scriptura just as strongly...and believes that the Holy Ghost says he's right!

Sola Scriptura is absolutely unscriptural.

The words of Our Lord testify to this themselves:

John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

To whom was He speaking there? The discourse began in John 13...the last supper. With whom was He speaking? The 12. This wasn't the Sermon on the Mount, where He spoke to thousands. And just think about it: if this promise was to all, then there would be NO divisions. All of us would be speaking from the same page. But it wasn't.

 

Then think about St. Paul's constant preaching to the particular churches. He constantly taught that they should get back to the Truth. If the Holy Ghost were to guide ALL into the Truth, there would be no need for him to do so. They would automatically do so. Why were there cautions about false teachers? Because some would take people away from the Truth and lead them into error.

2Ti 4:3-4 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.

I pray for you people constantly, praying that God will enlighten your hearts so that you can follow Whom you so earnestly seek. I pray that the deceit that you have taken to heart as the Truth will be revealed to you for what it is. I thank God for the Truth that you do have. And I pray that God will open your hearts and your eyes so that you can experience ALL the Truth.

2 Pet 3:15-16 So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

As St. Paul said to the Catholic Church in Ephesus,

Eph 1:16-23 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all.

[John Leland 1789]

“My point is someone who is bringing ‘serpents’ into a house of worship for ‘handling’ and praying in tongues hardly has room to mock someone else’s religion.”
**********************************
Who brought up taking serpents into church buildings? Did someone on this thread profess to take serpents to church?

[John Leland 1789]

So, put three to five Scriptures in a string that demonstrate the concept of “Catholic,” and how that applies to the particular church headquartered in a place called the Vatican - whatever church that is - lying in the heart of the city of Rome.

[Petronski]

Holy Eucharist is in all four Gospels, especially in John 6 and also in 1 Cor 11.

Reconciliation is in Matthew 16:19 & 18:18, and John 20:21-23.

[John Leland 1789]

In the same verse. The Baptism was by the Holy Spirit.

[Petronski]

So, put three to five Scriptures in a string that demonstrate the concept of “Catholic,” and how that applies to the particular church headquartered in a place called the Vatican - whatever church that is...

It is the Catholic Church. Please try to keep up.

[John Leland 1789]

Three to five verses to demonstrate the concept of “Catholic.”

[Mad Dawg]

In all seriousness and not contentiously, what do you make of

1. the saying to take up one's cross daily?
2. Colossians 1:24?
3. (my favorite mind-bender from Paul) Phillippians 2:12b - 13?

I'm getting the kind of symmetry between the "once for all" sacrifice of Christ and the "once" of the moment of turning to Christ in faith. What I'm asking about is the sort of "process" and even "participation" lingo we find in lines like these?

I am NOT trying to hit you with a "Nyah Nyah" here. I am asking for my edumication and enrichment.

[Mad Dawg]

Thanks.

I was working on the "marks" or "notes" of one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and I thought that logion alone handled three of 'em.

[DaveMSmith]

Just making a general statement about Pentecostal/Charismatic/Holiness believers as anything specific would be construed as a personal attack.

Besides, if anyone did profess taking snakes to church, they would be admitting to breaking the law (except in W Va).

[John Leland 1789]

Did you notice how that instruction to the Twelve Apostles to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature and to baptize them, is expanded to imply the building of one singular visible denomination?

Did you ever see a person who puts water on the forehead of an infant (an calling that baptism) preach the Gospel to the infant before doing that?

Did you ever notice in Acts chapter 8 that there was a persecution that scattered believers from Jerusalem, EXCEPT THE APOSTLES.

Did you ever notice that there is not a single incident in the Book of Acts, or in the Epistles, where any Apostle ever baptized anyone in the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost?

[Mad Dawg]

I’ve never been in a laying-on-of-hands session where all involved were NOT praying directly to Jesus.

I think the point of the question was why, other then the Jacobean injunction, go to the elders or anyone else for laying on of hands. If I have the grippe, why don't I just pray to God through IHS or to IHS?

My thinking (if you'll excuse the overstatement) is that in our idolatrous worship of Mary, what we're asking for is her prayers.

We've been round the houses on this, but there are two aspects to the mess, I think. One, the question of intercession; two, the question of communication with "those who have gone before.

It seems to me that if I ask my brothers and sisters and/or elders to "pray for me to the Lord our God" I am asking that they add their prayers to mine and am, by definition, asking them to intercede for me.

Now if I were to ask them to intercede while I went back to watching my "Sex in the City" DVD, THEN there's a problem!

[Petronski]

Did you notice how sola scriptura is not Biblical?

[John Leland 1789]

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:13)

Did you ever know anybody to go to a gym and “work out” ? Exercise. Exercise your salvation in this life and in this world. The first part of the verse is talking about the obedience of a believer.

Colossians 1:24. Christ suffered for sins, and He left some sufferings behind specifically for the Apostle Paul for Christ's body's sake, the Church. It is not implied that Paul's sufferings had any part in sin-payment, but to make the work of Christ known, and to make all men see what is the fellowship of the Mystery (the Church) Ephesians 3:9.

The cross is an instrument of death. Paul said, “I die daily.” A mature believer with a heart devoted to making Christ known to the world is one who preaches his own funeral every morning.

[Mad Dawg]

A mature believer with a heart devoted to making Christ known to the world is one who preaches his own funeral every morning.

Now THAT is a great line. I plan on stealing it, with attribution, of course.

Morning Prayer: I thank you IHS, that in You I have died, and in me You live!

Thanks!

[Mad Dawg]

Colossians 1:24. Christ suffered for sins, and He left some sufferings behind specifically for the Apostle Paul for Christ's body's sake, the Church. It is not implied that Paul's sufferings had any part in sin-payment, but to make the work of Christ known, and to make all men see what is the fellowship of the Mystery (the Church) Ephesians 3:9.

Here's a major Catholic/Protestant difference, I think. I think there is an organic relationship between the once-for-all sin-payment and the suffering we undergo when we make it known.

When the 'orrible brat child was 3 or 4, I constructed a mail-order printer stand for my humongo NEC impact printer. She wanted to help. So, though it was inconvenient, I let her hold the screwdriver and such and hand it to me.

Like that. Sort of.

[Quix]

The Scriptural position is . . .

ACCORDING TO YOUR FAITH

so be it unto you.

I’d strongly encourage medical treatment if that’s where one’s greater faith is vested.