Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
LOL. I think he’s wonderful!
Sometimes truth is burdensome. Donning rose-colored glasses to avoid the truth will fail. You might avoid SEEING the truth, but it will remain the truth.
That you cannot understand those verses is not my doing, but God's.
False.
Do you have any Scripture to actually challenge the statement, or are you still under the mistaken idea that wild rhetorical gesticulating diverts attention from the fact you can’t support your own dogmas of the moment.
The fourteen different Bible translations that do not translate blasphemeo as "blaspheme" (as opposed to the scandalous Catholic Bibles that DO translate blasphemeo as "blaspheme")--those circumstances?
LOL
And even after they die, supposedly they are still floundering around in purgatory, working to merit their salvation when in truth, Christ, the only propitiation for our sins, has already atoned in full for all the sins of His flock.
What a racket.
The “headquarters” of Christ’s church is Jesus Christ.
You did not. Those verses do not state what you claim they do.
That you cannot understand those verses is not my doing, but God's.
Calvinist claptrap.
Absurd.
How can anyone PROVE they’re born again, tyger? If I tell you, will you even believe me? Will you think I’m just imagining it?
God’s Spirit witnesses to my spirit that I am His. He has changed my life. I no longer seek things for myself but for the Kingdom of God. He has made me see many errors in my life and has healed a lot of hurts and pain. He has answered many prayers through His Son, Jesus Christ. He has given me many giftings to use in the church. I only want to serve Him and his people. He has given me faith, hope, comfort, joy, guided me through many trials and tribulations and I’ve come out of them without bitterness. I’ve been able to forgive those who despitefully used me.
If I think of anything more, I’ll let you know.
You can believe what you like, tyger. God drew me to Himself almost 40 years ago. I had had bible studies with Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons. None of them came to anything because it was not where God wanted me. My mother made us go to the Episcopal church when we were little and I continued to go to church all my life. When I was 39 years old, I heard the witness of two Christian women and from that point on, I sought Him and Him alone. I was born again in a little Baptist Church. It has changed my life.
Catholicism does not teach that the Pope is righteous.
"Neither is there salvation in any other [except Jesus]: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." -- Acts 4:10,12
Catholicism does not teach that one is saved through the Pope.
"And being made perfect, he [Jesus] became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" -- Hebrews 5:9
Catholicism does not teach that the Pope is the author or co-author of eternal salvation.
Three attempts. You scored nil.
In fact, nothing in those verses contradicts--or is contradicted by--Catholic teaching.
And why don’t you rely on the Bible and stop reading all the stuff church ‘fathers’ maintain is the truth?
PAPERTYGER: "Doctrine does not require Scriptural support."
To which I refer you to Christ...
"Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." -- John 7:16
And how do we know this doctrine? By reading the word of God.
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." -- 2 Timothy 3:16-17"For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust." -- 1 Timothy 1:10-11
They is?
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