Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Thank your for another refreshing (**LOL**) splash of Calvinism.
You can have Calvin, I'll take the Church founded by Christ, the Catholic Church, the Pillar and Ground of the Truth. 1 Timothy 3:15
891 - "The Roman Pontiff...enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals...The infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself."
937 - The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls."
"Supreme pastor?" "Infallibility?" "Universal power?" An "infallible," "universal power" which extends even over the Scriptures!?!
Do Catholics ever read their Bibles? If they did they would recognize that those superlatives are reserved for the Triune God alone.
""...for they drank of that spiritual Rock which followed them: and that Rock was Christ." -- 1 Corinthians 10:4"And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church..." -- Colossians 1:18
But it's not like we haven't been warned to guard against this obvious and blasphemous deflection...
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." -- 2 Thess. 2:3-4
"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven." -- Rev. 13:6"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." -- Ephesians 1:22-23 "And [God] hath put all things under his [Christ's] feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
When a church glorifies God in truth and love, it stands as a testiment to His perfect grace.
When a church devolves into mysticism and tyranny, it stands as a testament to His perfect judgment.
He calls it His Church, guided by the Holy Spirit. I will point out yet again (lest any reader be fooled by insinuations to the contrary) that Christ is the head of the Catholic Church. The Pope (currently Benedict XVI) is Christ's Vicar on earth.
The episcopal college and its head, the PopeIf they did they would recognize that those superlatives are reserved for the Triune God alone.
880 When Christ instituted the Twelve, "he constituted [them] in the form of a college or permanent assembly, at the head of which he placed Peter, chosen from among them."398 Just as "by the Lord's institution, St. Peter and the rest of the apostles constitute a single apostolic college, so in like fashion the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are related with and united to one another."399
881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock.400 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head."401 This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church's very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.
882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403
Show me the verses.
And any members of such a church should flee it and return to the Catholic Church, founded by Christ.
Yes, you've got it now: The Catholic Church, founded by Christ!
Anyone who tells you differently is lying or a fool.
And there you have it! In fact, you can write your own history if necessary.
This is a revelation to you? What do you come here for, the pretty colors?
Can't remember the circumstances around "the list of 14," can you?
Small "c" in "catholic" meaning "universal."
And that catholic church of Christ is by no means located in the Vatican.
While some RC believers might well be saved, the errors and lies preached by the Vatican undercut any appearance of salvation for the RCC as a true church of Jesus Christ since it so often contradicts and denies the true faith of Jesus Christ.
No, I am completely correct. Any related questions have nothing to do with the validity of that particular statement.
And by the way, you did get an answer from Petronski. That you didn't like it has no bearing on whether or not you got one, but I'm beginning to really get a feel for how you define "true" and "false."
I believe the word you're looking for is "admission."
PETRONSKI: Show me the verses.
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." -- Romans 3:10
"Neither is there salvation in any other [except Jesus]: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." -- Acts 4:10,12
"And being made perfect, he [Jesus] became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" -- Hebrews 5:9
Not "co-author."
"Author." Sole credit. Name above the title.
In Catholic theology, papal infallibility is the dogma that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation. For all such infallible teachings, the Holy Spirit also works through the body of the Church to ensure that the teaching will be received by all Catholics.
Why do anti-Catholics have so much trouble using wikipedia? It might be perfect, but it's at least an effort to be right.
For a fuller treatment, readers can try these:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
This one even has an imprimatur right there on the page:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
Show me the verses.
I call anyone with Christ in his or her life a Christian. I don’t consider anyone else a Christian who just goes to church but doesn’t have Christ as saviour. I’ve really had my eyes opened about how Catholics view us and even their on salvation or lack thereof. Kinda sad really. To not know if they’re saved or even worthy of salvation until they die is such a burden.
LOL! And with that hilarious nugget, the weekend begins!
Now we know how the liberal courts have usurped the office and work of the Constitution since the liberal courts don't believe their edicts require Constitutional support.
Likewise, Rome usurps the office and work of the Holy Spirit who makes the Scriptures come alive in us in order to lead us in all righteousness.
All liberalism is the same lie against the truth. Either God rules or men rule.
No, it is worldwide. But the headquarters of that Catholic Church of Christ IS located in the Vatican.
How amazing is that? No wonder they don’t believe in sola scripture.
Believe otherwise, and follow whom you will.
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