Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Either the Church that Jesus Christ created is the pillar of truth or else everything in the Bible is a lie. There is no third option
= = =
WRONG, Christ did NOT create the RC org/edifice/club.
Militarily supported political power-mongers meeting in committee did 400 years or so later.
That’s just the historical facts.
Actually, I think you are quite right about that.
However, the globalists are
MOST FIERCELY HOSTILE TO
EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS
AND OF THOSE
MOST EXTRA FIERCELY HOSTILE TO PENTECOSTALS, CHARISMATICS AND ALL WHO BELIEVE IN AND TEACH ABOUT THE 2ND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST.
There’s a message in those facts.
INDEED.
YOUR POINTS ARE VALID AND WELL MADE.
And, perhaps worth relentlessly emphasizing.
As for me, I’m quite willing to forgive and go on. None of us is righteous, no not one.
Christ forgave the prostitute. I forgive all involved in this hideousness. God will sort out the retribution quite perfectly.
I don’t recall “outrage” being one of the fruits of the Spirit.
Frankly, it has been my experience that such things are what people use to fill in the hole when God is ignoring them.
UTTER HOGWASH.
MORE UTTER HOGWASH.
Thanks, Enat. I'm always enraptured by that passage. :)
HOW COMFORTING
More points again courtesy of the ever faithful personal assault.
Thanks.
MORE UNMITIGATED HOGWASH.
Sounds like the famous RC org
PROJECTION BUNNY is as fully energized as ever.
Glad to hear it.
Prayers.
I think you make a valid point well.
However, in all RELIGIOUS ORGS . . .
some of the extremely flawed jerks end up deciding dogma, doctrine, etc.
Again . . .
I think you make many excellent points in a grand fashion almost bringing me to tears.
Thanks much.
Doesn't a "personal assault" have to be directed at an actual "person?"
If your sensibilities that delicate, perhaps you should avoid open threads.
I don’t disagree with you. I just think that Evangelical Christians and Catholics need to recognize that, despite our differences, there are a great many issues where we are in full agreement and these make us a combined target for the evil left.
The left really doesn’t care about what role tradition plays, or what we feel about the Pope, or the Virgin Mary, or the Eucharist. As far as the left is concerned ALL of us who believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, that He will come again and that we must obey His Law, are religious “extremists” and that we are standing in the way of their leftist utopia.
Return with me to the golden days of yesteryear when a patient, as Freud relates somewhere, tried to give him a hug after a session. He says he rebuked her and then he thought about it. As I in my autodidactic ignorance think, that's when he developed the notion of transference.
So when you said you wanted to give the RM a bear hug, the primary processes kicked in and that incident came to my alleged mind. And because you are a professional, I thought you would be (a) amused and (b) stimulated to thought about the wonder of cyber-communications (and the images we impose on our correspondents), feelings about authority figures, and all like that there.
That's pretty much it.
Well the red-green colorblind earnest Christians manage to stay calm. At least this one does.
I was prepared to read deMonfort by my time among the P/protestants. Surrounded by people telling me that "prayer works", which, on its face, is a superstitious, magical, idolatrous, blasphemous, and/or works-righteousness-ish notion of prayer, I learned to look past the unfortunate turns of phrase to the often lovely enthusiasm which lay behind it.
So it is with deMonfort. When I read him, my first reaction is that he sets my teeth on edge. But then I try again with good will and I find him fun and encouraging. I would not call him a deep thinker. I've already offered the analogy of high school cheer leader. No football player of any sense really believes "If HE can't do it, no one can!" But it's fun to hear.
Correct. He founded the Catholic Church.
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