Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Well, now that Protestant is a term claimed by Calvinist for themselves, it does concern you in the sense that when I say that Protestants think of the church as the society of the elect, the fact that YOU don’t think so is not, strictly speaking relevant.
You intimated that we cast out sinners, etc. That’s not true. Read your post again. You should be able to pick out what you said about protestants.
What is the evidence you're born again?
I meant . . . as . . .
an illustration of what some posters may have
left you FEELING that you were engaging in such activities.
What a stupid question.
Then why do y'all continually rely on a doctrine about the Bible that isn't even in the Bible?
“(But, if you buy this wonderful zirconium Rosary, we’ll throw in this electric drill AND a set of Ginzu knives. Yours for only $19.99 plus a nominal packing and handling fee of $1,000.)”
I understand these people were heavy into rose petals, and succors would actually buy them convinced Mary had blessed them and promised good health and prosperity in this world and the next.
Only in your eyes, tyger.
Now THAT is a telling answer.
As I’ve noted . . . I’m not near as concerned for your soul’s wellfare vis a vis Mary as I used to be—rightly or wrongly, on my part.
Personally, I think that’s a change of my sense in my spirit as I’ve read more of your reasoned personalized belief statements etc.
And, I’ve noted that still, I would certainly prefer what, from my perspective, would be a farm more Biblical and far safer still perspective and attitude toward Mary vs the RC org’s outrageous caricature of Mary.
Having reviewed all that . . . I wonder . . .
can you at all . . . see any hint in any of some of the pontifications by some on your side—can you see any hint of what concerns us Prottys so much for some folks?
The really sorrowful part of discussing these issues with you is your preference for comebacks instead of answers.
I ask you something you are commanded by Jesus to answer, "the reason for the hope that lies within you," and you tell me it's a stupid question.
I truly believe your religion is a product of where you live. If you had been in Utah, you'd be Mormon. If you'd been Egyptian, you'd be Muslim. Japanese: Buddhist. etc...
Did you see the post where it was implied that I should overlook the fact that the woman in Revelation 12 fled into the wilderness because it is “obscure” and should not be used to question the Catholic teaching that the woman is Mary?
Incredible. They won't be manifesting such cheekiness when The Father inquires why they mangled His Word so.
But then the same one suggested that the fight into Egypt was the flight into the wilderness. This, even though there is no cross-reference making Egypt the wilderness. We remember that Israel fled Egypt INTO the wilderness. 3-1/2 years in Egypt? I don’t think so.
Now, now. You know cross referencing with the whole counsel of God in the whole of Scripture is . . . . UNNECESSARY--More--terribly inappropriate. They have the militarily supported political power-mongers meeting in committee compulsively fondling and mangling !!!!TRADITION!!!! into any conceivable belief, dogma, ritual, practice, assumption, presumption, fantasies, . . . remotely needed by any RC rep in any context in any century anywhere near Alice's Rabbit Hole. So, no, they don't NEED NO UNRUBBERIZED !!!SCRIPTURE!!! RELIGIOUS politics is quite sufficient, thank you.
THE LORD’S BRETHREN (Credit the Companion Bible)
According to Matt 13:55, the Lord had four brothers (i.e., half-brothers, as we say), James, Joses, Simon and Judas. He had at least three sisters also - “and His sisters, are they not all with us?” Had there been but two, the word all would have been both.
Ahhhhhhh, more Scriptural facts. However, since their rubberized version doesn't stretch far enough to cover those facts, they must throw dust in the air; wail; dodge, rationalize, pontificate, propagandize, did I say rationalize; fantasize; invent; deny; did I say rationalize; . . . all manner of shucking and jiving in response.
The Lord is called Mary’s “firstborn” (Matt 1:25 and Luke 2:7), and the natural inference is that Mary had other children. The [Greek] word prototokos is used only in these two passages and in Rom 8;29; Col 1:15,18; Heb 1:6; 11:28; 12:23 (pl); Rev 1:5, so that the meaning is easily ascertained.
OH DEAR! OH DEAR! OH DEAR ME! Incontravertible Biblical Proof. However, given that the Alice in Wonderland Political Power-mongering School of Theology has given many RC ears some very thick sound neutralizing ear inserts . . . and their eyes some very very effective black glasses and blinders . . . and their psychologies some extremely deeply entrenched and intense denial modules . . . I hope you aren't expecting any admission of the truth of such facts. It's just not in them.
It's plausible that the demonic forces behind the delusions about the Caricature of Mary are also preventing such truths registering. Regardless, here we have a simple linguistic, textual fact that should alter the understandings of millions of RC's. Yet, it probably won't. And by and by . . . during their life reviews . . . they will get to explain to Father why they were so stubbornly invested in idolatrous mangling of HIS WORD. Could be a very sobering time.
Had He been her only son, the word would have been [Greek] monogenes, which occurs in Luke 7:12; 8:42; 9:38, of human parentage; and of the Lord, as the only begotten of the Father, in John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; I John 4:9. In Heb 11:17 it is used of Isaac, Abraham’s only son according to the promise.
More excellent proof, of course. Seems to me some folks really do NOT BELIEVE GOD when HE speaks of becoming broken on HIS WORD or CRUSHED UNDER IT.
In Psalm 69, a Psalm with many predictive allusions to the Lord’s earthly life, verse 8 reads, “I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children”. The Gospel history records His brethren in association with His mother. After the miracle at Cana, which they probably witnessed, we are told that “He went down to Capernaum, He, and His mother, and His brethren, and His disciples” (John 2:12). Later on they exhibit a spirit of opposition or jealousy, for while He is speaking to the people, His brethren, accompanied by His mother, sought Him, apparently to hinder His work (Matt 12:46, 47; Mark 3:31, 32; Luke 8:19, 20). In Mark 3:21 we read, “When His friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on Him; for they said, He is beside Himself.
YES! THANKS. Psalm 69:8 was the verse I was looking for. More incontrovertible proof that will be wholesale ignored, mangled, danced around, rationalized away . . . until they stand before The Father's piercing gaze.
The expression “His friends” (could be used of “kinsmen”) is [Greek] hoi par autou, “those beside Him “, and it denotes a relationship so close as to identify them with the “brethren” of v. 31. Again (John 7:3-10), they showed lack of sympathy with His work, and the reason is given in v. 5, “For neither did His brethren believe in Him”.
They are not seen again till, after His resurrection, they are gathered in the upper room with the apostles, and with His mother and theirs (Acts 1:14). Their unbelief had gone. James had become a servant to the Lord Jesus Christ (James 1:1), through the appearance to him of the risen Saviour (I Cor 15:7), and, shortly, is a “pillar” of the church in Jerusalem (Acts 12:17; 15:13-21; 21:18; Gal 1:19; 2:9,12).
The other brethren seem to have joined in the witness by itinerating; see I Cor 9:5.
The natural meaning of the term “His brethren”, in the Scripture record, would never have been challenged, but for the desire, when corruption crept into the churches (Acts 20:29, 30), of raising Mary from the position of “handmaid of the Lord” (Luke 1:38) to the exalted one of [Greek] Theotokos, mother of God, whence it was an easy step to investing her with divine honours, as being herself a goddess. And thus the way was cleared for identifying her with the great goddess of Paganism, who is the mother of a divine son, and who is yet a virgin, a deity best known by the appellation she bore in Egypt, Isis, the mother of Horus.
INDEED. I believe this is spiritually as well as organizationally, sociologically RELIGIOUSLY generated perversion of God's Truth; God's Scripture; God's Son's place, role, office . . . by demonic forces successfully manipulating politicians in the RC org centuries ago and increasingly worse in some respects in the modern era. And the blindness to it--including the willful blindness to it is increasingly sobering to me--frightful--in terms of the impact on some souls.
So it was put forth that Mary had no children other than the Lord, and that His brethren and sisters were either cousins, the children of Mary, the wife of Cleophas. Or, as we have heard from Catholics lately, “Joseph’s children from an earlier marriage!”
Those who maintained the former opinion asserted that Joseph was an old man when he married Mary. Of this there is not the least hint in the Gospel records. If he had older children, the right of the Lord Jesus to the throne of David would be invalidated, for the two genealogies in Matt: 1 and Luke 3 show that the regal rights were united in Joseph and Mary.
Hideous. Simply hideously idolatrous and blasphemous. And it is still shocking to me that even intense RC's can't/won't see it. THANKS AGAIN FOR THAT EXCELLENT POST.
farm more Biblical I sold my sheep and quit farming when I tore my sub-acromial ligament. I think I'm still grieving. I loved my sheep, and the pain and fatigue and sorrow of lambing was an integral part of that love. I want to say you haven't lived until you've realized on a sleeting February night that at least your hands will be warm while you help a ewe through a dystocia.
And one of the most wonderful experiences of my life was blowing little gentle puffs of air into a lamb's mouth until her tongue turned pink and she breathed on her own.
And THAT's what you get for a typo!
YES, I get it. Said negatively: Ever since the "reformation", a lot of the Catholic Church's "style" has been sort of aggressively and woundedly, "We don't care; you can't hurt us, nyah, nyah!"
I think that Vatican II and the Popes since then could profitably be understood as saying to Catholics, "Get over it. We have some very serious disagreements with our separated brothers,and sisters, but, while we need to continue to tend to our own business, we also need to acknowledge at least SOME sho 'nuff action of God among them."
We really think we are the fullness of Churchitude. I am delighted to report that approximately 99 and 44/100s % of my pastors "counsel" to me in confession amounts to, "You dolt. Have you forgotten to have faith in the God who loves you?"
But I think many of us (on either side) forget to trust God and take the deluded idea that if WE don't MAKE those who disagree with us quit disagreeing, some terrible thing will happen.
I have prayed the Rosary off and on since 1967, ad for the past several years I have prayed it almost daily, sometimes praying a "full" rosary of 20 decades (200 hail Mary's). All I can report is that more and more I tend naturally to "cast all my cares on Him that careth for me" and to rejoice with a deep and life-changing joy in God's love.
And so I naturally consider myself a brother to all who rejoice in the wonder of Christ's love. While I yearn for you to share my confidence and joy in the Eucharist, still I consider the disagreement about that, while grievous, not beyond God's power to redeem, and of little importance (though I kind of bridle as I type that) compared to the wonder of God's love.
None of us, on either side, has remembered enough Him who never forgets us. None of us has let our lives and words be dominated by the wonder of that love. We, each and all of us, have said to Him, "Yes, You can save the world and me — and HAVE saved the world and me — but before I allow myself to rest secure in Your love I have to deal with this person who doesn't agree with me.
We all need forgiveness, and we Catholics, who claim special gifts, need all the more forgiveness because we have despised the gifts while pettily arguing with those who claim we don't have them. How stupid and ungrateful is that?
Fortunately God's forgiveness, like the widow's jar of oil, does not run dry.
Mention of Freud leaves me wondering if that post was a return to your being deliberately . . . harshly ornery about me again . . . that’s perhaps largely contingent on my feelings about Freud.
Of course.
You're such a big fan of the Westminster Confession of Faith, I thought you would have known that already...
II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;[2] and of their children:[3] and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,[4] the house and family of God,[5] out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.[6] III. Unto this catholic visible Church Christ has given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world: and does, by His own presence and Spirit, according to His promise, make them effectual thereunto.[7] IV. This catholic Church has been sometimes more, sometimes less visible.[8] And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.[9] V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error;[10] and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan.[11] Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.[12]
Of the Church
I omitted #VI since I know it irritates you, and in all likelihood it probably would have taken your concentration off the points being made in I. - V.
Well put. Much agree. Thanks.
What a strange statement.
The Roman Catholic thinks the Protestant is heading for an "unhealthy" oblivion by rebuking the RCC's understanding of the Lord's Supper and the role of Mary in our salvation.
And Protestants do not believe it is "healthy" for the body, mind or spirit to fall down to the stock of a tree or to call anyone a mediator between God and men but Jesus Christ.
"A wicked messenger falleth into mischief: but a faithful ambassador is health." -- Proverbs 13:17
But one cannot know this Truth without experiencing it.
Oh my, I didn't know you'd taken to falsehood AND backbiting!
As I'm the one who told you the flight into the wilderness was obscure, is there someone else who said the same to you excepting they added the bit about "should not be used to question the Catholic teaching that the woman is Mary," or is that simply falsehood on your part?
Furthermore, there was nothing "implied" about overlooking the flight into the wilderness. I was quite explicit in maintaining it is intellectually dishonest to focus on the ambiguous in order to question the obvious.
I still maintain it, too.
“Here are the fifteen promises of Mary to Christians who recite the rosary.”
1. Whoever shall faithfully serve me by the recitation of the rosary, shall receive signal graces.
2. I promise my special protection and the greatest graces to all those who shall recite the rosary. 3. The rosary shall be a powerful armor against hell, it will destroy vice, decrease sin, and defeat heresies.
[compared to the weakly ineffective Blood of Jesus, one might assume--what an OUTRAGE!].
4. It will cause virtue and good works to flourish; it will obtain for souls the abundant mercy of God; it will withdraw the heart of men from the love of the world and its vanities, and will lift them to the desire of eternal things. Oh, that souls would sanctify themselves by this means.
[AGAIN, COMPARED, EVIDENTLY to the brazenly blasphemously assumed weakness of The Blood fo Jesus and His Spirit! WHAT AN OUTRAGE!]
5. The soul which recommend itself to me by the recitation of the rosary, shall not perish.
What an outrage! Nothing about the crucial faith in Christ and His Blood covering in this idolatrous blasphemous statement.
6. Whoever shall recite the rosary devoutly, applying himself to the consideration of its sacred mysteries shall never be conquered by misfortune. God will not chastise him in His justice, he shall not by an unprovided death; if he be just he shall remain in the grace of God, and become worthy of eternal life.
GADS! WHAT CONTINUED BLASPHEMOUS IDOLATROUS OUTRAGE! Now we have the magic talisman level of idolatry and blasphemy operating. All in competition to Christ's completed work on The Cross and the functioning of His Holy Spirit. What a brazenly screaming outrage! God have mercy.
7. Whoever shall have a true devotion for the rosary shall not die without the sacraments of the Church.
ANOTHER OUTRAGE! Nothing about The Blood of Jesus and faith in Jesus. Just the competing magical talisman effect of the beads and the bead ritual. What a horror! THAT KIND OF DEVOTION BELONGS TO GOD AND GOD ALONE
8. Those who are faithful to recite the rosary shall have during their life and at their death the light of God and the plenitude of His graces; at the moment of death they shall participate in the merits of the saints in paradise.
MORE OUTRAGEOUS MAGIC TALISMAN WORKS BASED MAGICAL FANTASIES in an affront to simple faith believing prayer to God directly. God have mercy.
9. I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the rosary.
No way Isis Goddess--interloper Mary Caricature. CHRIST ALONE IS THE DELIVERER. CHRIST ALONE IS THE KINSMAN REDEEMER. CHRIST ALONE IS ALL SUCH--CHRIST ALONE IS EMPHATICALLY SUFFICIENTLY ALL SUCH; PERFECTLY ALL SUCH; RIGHTFULLY ALL SUCH--CHRIST AND CHRIST ALONE. What outrageous blasphemous idolatry. I can increasingly understand how Christ felt driving the money changers out of the Temple.
10. The faithful children of the rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in heaven.
The outrage never ends! Nothing about being Blood Bought Children of God by virtue of Christ's Blood--!!!NO!!!--merely the works based obsessive magic talisman addiction to the beads and the outrageous focus on Mary . . . Christ's Blood seems to have been flushed as inadequate or unnecessary. The outrage of The Father must be incredible over such hideousness. The outrage of Mary herself must be incredible, if she knows about such. Again--the RITUAL WORKS EARN MERIT--What a hideous affront to Christ's Blood and His Free Gifts.
11. You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the rosary.
MORE HORROR--MORE BLASPHEMOUS, IDOLATROUS--works based magic talisman ritual producing goodies in competition to the Scriptural: WHATSOEVER YOU SHALL ASK IN MY NAME, FAITH BELIEVING . . .
12. All those who propagate the holy rosary shall be aided by me in their necessities.
MORE IDOLATROUS OUTRAGE. Nothing about Holy Spirit's gifts, aid, comforts . . . via Christ's Blood . . . Nothing about spreading THE BIBLICAL GOSPEL yielding fruit. But Propagandizing the blasphemous bead ritual will produce all the essentials of life. TALK ABOUT SHUNTING GOD TO THE SIDELINES! SHEESH! GOD HAVE MERCY!
13. I have obtained from my Divine Son that all the advocates of the rosary shall have for intercessors the entire celestial court during their life and at the hour of death.
GOD HAVE MERCY. What a gross lie and deception from the pit of hell. And I feel that's too mild a statement. No way is The Father going to allow that kind of Glory sharing at this stage of things, if ever. ABSOLUTELY NO WAY.
14. All who recite the rosary are my son, and brothers of my only son Jesus Christ.
MORE UNBIBLICAL OUTRAGE. The magic talisman bead ritual does nothing good in such regards. AGAIN--IT'S A DISTRACTION, MISDIRECTION FROM HELL. It's not FAITH IN CHRIST AND HIS BLOOD THAT DOES ANY GOOD--IT'S THE MAGIC BEAD RITUAL OF WORKS THAT MAGICALLY PRODUCES SUCH WONDERFUL THINGS--and not from Christ--from Mary's bossom, White Hanky, hands. What outrageous blasphemy.
15. Devotion of my rosary is a great sign of predestination.
NO!!! It's a great sign of being duped by a gross idolatrous, blasphemous delusion from hell.
I'm sure some RC's will likely consider the above quite strong. Personally, I think my statements above are VERY MILD compared to the offensiveness of the statements about the Rosary.
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