The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Boagenes]

Hellenism. Alexander the Great and his empire.

[Mad Dawg]

One word: Alexander the Great

;-)

[papertyger]

But the peculiar hubris of Mariology seems to know no end. Now we have Mary altering God's divine plan.

I can't help it if the text of the Bible doesn't fit your interpretation Dr. E.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Mary's grace is derived from Jesus.

All God's family derive grace from Jesus. In that regard, Mary is no lesser or greater than you and I.

"There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.

And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.

And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?

And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother." -- Mark 3:31-35

BTW, you seem to write very well for a 20-year-old, especially for someone who is as new to the RCC as you say. Far beyond your years, and a lot like your father.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Frankly, Judith, I sometimes have a difficult time keeping track of the answers you may or may not give.

Is it true you believe that the RCC magisterium has the task of interpreting the Bible for you and all Catholics?

[papertyger]

Only Christ is perfect. And that is enough for me.

If only Christ were enough for you, you'd be Catholic.

[Mad Dawg]

Gives a whole new meaning to “Vain repetitions”.

[maryz]

Mary is no lesser or greater than you and I.

You mean when Christ said it wasn't up to Him to determine who was greater in the Kingdom of Heaven, He meant it was up to you? Protestant Bible must be more different than I thought!!!

[netmilsmom]

>>You’ve been asked for evidence of this statement a half-dozen times.<<

Where? Link me to the dozen times I’ve been asked.

Here is a quote from FR NanetteClaret - Catholic convert.
“It doesn’t matter what you say or how you explain it. I still believe Protestants worship the Bible. I’ve seen it with my own eyes! The open Bible is front and center on the table right below the pulpit. All worship centers around this collection of pieces of paper. Protestants always have one in their hands and never go to church without theirs. It’s all-Bible, all-the-time, and the bigger, the better. I’ve seen people put one hand on the Bible and stretch their other hand out in prayer. It sure looks to me like they think the Bible does possess intrinsic holiness, not unlike a relic. And it looks to me like they worship it. “

I’ve seen it myself. Even had a teacher that would not teach unless he had his hand on his Bible. Sure looked like he was worshiping that Bible.

Prove me wrong. I saw it with my own eyes as many others have.
Hey, Peter Popoff has miracle spring water too. Hmmmmm.

[Uri’el-2012]

I would add that Jesus, following the 10 Commandments,

Do any of you obey the following ?

12 'Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the LORD
your God commanded you.

13 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God;
in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter
or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your
donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you,
so that your male servant and your female servant may rest
as well as you.

15 'You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt,
and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand
and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God
commanded you to observe the sabbath day.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

[Ultra Sonic 007]

BTW, you seem to write very well for a 20-year-old,

Thank you. You can view my other editorials - most being from my English 101 and English 102 classes in college - on my profile. My most recent 'work' is my Pro-Life website designed for CS101. Please forgive the occasional typo.

especially for someone who is as new to the RCC as you say.

I just looked into the particular sections of the Catechism concerning Mary for my previous post, whilst considering the back-and-forth posts by everyone on this thread.

Far beyond your years,

*shrugs* These are just my current conclusions on the matter. What does and does not constitute Catholic teaching is something to be considered from here on out. Especially with regard to Mary.

and a lot like your father.

Only in that he and I are both conservatives. I certainly don't know as much as he does. He certainly hasn't been looking over my shoulder, if that's what you're thinking.

[1000 silverlings]

we are not under the Law, and tho I have oxen, I have no servant girls or donkeys.

[netmilsmom]

>>Is that what the RCC is now calling JPII’s embarrassing lapse in sanity when he tenderly kissed the Koran?

Maybe he was likewise suffering from “pope derangement syndrome” when he said Mary was the “co-redeemer.” <<

I don’t know if you heard, but the man is dead. Did anyone tell you?

So really that’s between him and God. I’m not sure any of our opinions count!!!!

[1000 silverlings]

and mores the pity I might add.

[netmilsmom]

I do have to ask though, were you Homeschooled?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Then you don't believe in petitionary prayer? Do you think it's wrong and ineffectual or just ineffectual?

I believe what the Scriptures say -- that God hears all the prayers and answers all the prayers of His children, already knowing what they require before they even ask.

"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him." -- Matthew 6:6-8

---

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7

[Uri’el-2012]

we are not under the Law, and tho I have oxen, I have no servant girls or donkeys.

So you reject the Law of YHvH ?

Do you practice Antinomianism ?

b;SHEM Yah'shua

[Judith Anne]

In post 609, you posted something you said you found at Vatican.va.

According to the RCC catechsim, found at Vatican.va, all Scripture must be interpreted by the magisiterium, the bishops and the pope before being read and understood by members of the church.

It's a mystery to me what you are thinking. But I am curious where the bolded part came from.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

And what if what you read in the Bible conflicts with the interpretation given by the magisterium?

[1000 silverlings]

You know better than that