Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I read the Bible to find out what Catholics believe. For Protestant interpretations I have to go to sources. ;-)
If I may, I think you’d do well to read paras 966,974 on the Assumption and 490-493 Or just look up Mary in the index of the Catechism and crank on through. Yes, who and what she is is centered on and results from (though sometimes in anticipation) her relationship to the Son of God. And while He is Divine and uncreated, she is human and created and everything she has and is comes from God.
Do they believe in the Book of Hebrews?
Probably from all the ex-Catholics in the pews.
I don’t much care whether you believe me or not.
lol
Only Christ is perfect. And that is enough for me.
“indication” is not the same as “credence”. It was wrong for me to say there was “no indication”, because there were things that led reasonable people to use those scriptures in the way they are being used.
However, in my opinion there is no credence to that use.
Maybe you disagree with that distinction, but I felt it was worthwhile enough to acknowledge that my earlier statement was inaccurate (I should have done so more directly).
It is clear the child is meant to be a figure of Jesus, since the text says the child will be the ruler of all. But the child is not Jesus, as in the story the child is taken to heaven, not crucified on earth. It’s imagery, not an historical document.
If you try to make it historical, you can say that because the woman has a crown, she has to be a queen, and because the child is Jesus, it must be Mary. But then you have Mary’s Son taken from her at birth, and Mary taken into the wilderness for 42 months, and then there’s all of her offspring.
Now, while I believe Mary had offspring, the “offspring” in Revelations most certainly are not HER children.
Of course, I don’t think even the Catholics believe that Mary was chased by a dragon, or was given wings to fly to the desert.
In the end, in the story, having tried to drown the woman but having failed, “the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.”
I reject the idea that you can take a passage of scripture, interpret parts of it as being factual history, while other parts within the same story are clearly imagery, not meant to be taken literally.
So I reject the notion that the “woman” is Mary, that the child is Jesus, that Mary is a queen because she has a crown, but that her child was NOT taken to heaven, she was not chased by a dragon, she did not sprout wings, and she did not spend 42 months in the desert.
And believe me, everything I just said is in NO way getting into detail. The detailed analysis of Revelation 12 would take more knowledge than I possess, and more words than I could reasonably write in a day, or a week.
There are chapters in books that don’t deal with this in sufficient detail.
At this point in my life it’s all I can do to remember Guilderstein and Rosencrantz are dead.
641 posted on June 1, 2008 6:00:42 PM MDT by Boagenes
Yah'shua debated the priests in the Temple when He was thirteen.
b'SHEM Yah'shua
I'm sure it was in Hebrew.
We are instructed to pray for our fellow man, and to pray to the Triune God alone.
It’s very simple. The parts of the former Empire that now speak “Latin” languages—France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Rumania—were the parts of the Empire in which Latin was the lingua franca. Further east, the lingua franca was Greek, but Latin was still the official language of imperial documents and the courts.
Good points. Catholics do not worship or adore Mary the Mother of God. Rather, we honor and praise Mary because of her great love and faithfulness to God. God is glorified in His creation (e.g., angels, mountains, stars, sunsets, human beings), and when we praise the beauty of His creation we are praising Him. This principle is at the heart of the Catholic teaching on honoring Mary. We recognize the great beauty and the graces God has bestowed on her (cf. Rom. 8:30), and praising her redounds to God's greater honor and glory. Catholics do not worship or adore Mary the Mother of God. Rather, we honor and praise Mary because of their great love and faithfulness to God.
To your comments, I would add that Jesus, following the 10 Commandments, honored His mother. Keep in mind, as well, that it is through Mary that Jesus took on human flesh. No Mary, no Jesus. There was no other woman waiting in the wings.
No, we were instructed something in Aramaic or Greek that, moving to the English language, got translated as 'pray.' If you are giving an Apology on this thread for your particular faith, are you saying that you're sorry, or are there different definitions of the word?
Still wondering if you believe petitionary prayer has any effect.
Why? Could not God create another?
I thought Greek was the language of trade — of business, broadly — all around the Mediterranean. Not sure I ever read why . . .
>>What does that mean?<<
You tell me. Or perhaps the Mod can tell us.
Post 711
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2022737/posts
>>Then one should remember that contending against certain doctrines is a matter of faithfulness to some. In other words, if they did not confront what they understand to be false doctrine they would not be worshipping God.<<
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