Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Ah, yes, but, of course, it would be your opinion of evidence...right.
***And I have browsed at great length. Thank you for the invitation. (It still doesn’t mean you have authored the books)***
Actually, it does. If you wish, we may discuss the authors and their merits.
***Any church that doesn’t teach The Gospel is in serious need of reform.***
A specific ignorance of the Gospels combined with a misunderstanding of Paul requires a submission to the Church.
If that is what impresses you, then you might look into Baal. There is far more than two thousand years of scholarship proving him. [...] and guidance of the Holy Spirit[...]
That guidance seems to have been rather sporadic... Your church has no great claim to a shining Spirit guided history, or there would be no Protestants.
Yet when asked what is The Gospel you don't know.
Now Dear Heart Mary . . .
we have to be compassionate . . .
when the committee of militarily supported power mongers met in committee about 400 AD . . . their arrogance was already off the charts . . . and it’s been growing exponentially ever since.
Given such a head start on such rapid growth of the uhhh ‘quality,’ . . . it’s only understandable that the RC edifice manifests the Mt Evrests of examples of such.
When such RELIGIOUS cliques have met throughout history, they have virtually invariably concluded that their fantasies were the truest truly true truth ordained expressly and exclusively by Gawd Almighty and that all others were heretics.
When ARROGANCE
STARTS
THERE . . . it’s not likely to turn into gargantuan humility!
LOL.
***Self indulgent and power seeking research.
If there was ever a case of the pot calling the kettle blck... Can you say “Holy Roman Empire”? ***
Are you confusing the German nobles’ power seeking with the Holy Roman Empire?
***What is the Protestant Canon, by the way?
The Protestant Bible. ***
Can you give me the name of it?
***The only authority we have is that conferred upon us by Jesus Christ.
I do not agree.***
It doesn’t matter if you or I agree. It matters only if Jesus agrees.
I missed this personal assault earlier.
But I’d only rate it slightly slick.
Now I am not going to post any "LOL."
I am going to post my declaration: I am laughing at you.
Your comparison is ludicrous and, hopefully, facetious.
ROTFLOL!
That's a first. Maybe even less than a first since all three Gospels have Christ clarifying that those who believe in Him are His family, His mother and brothers and sisters.
Excuse me, I was going on the belief that Jesus saves and the Bible has the information. I guess those poor souls who didn’t have the Bible to read for over a thousand years are languishing in hell then.
It’s hard to
ELEVATE the debate . . .
when it starts in a phoney pretention of Little Pebble’s grave
and STAYS THERE.
No place good. 8~)
I only try and share the joke.
I feel no responsibility to goose their funny bones in addition to that.
What is the Gospel, tiki?
Naw, wasn’t saying that at all.
I endeavor to tell the truth. And the opposite of the insinuation is the truth.
My student ratings are evidently amongst the highest in the college.
I remember that we went through this some time ago. The Reformed (I think it was Dr. E.) said: Christ crucified. We said that it was Christ Crucified, Resurrected and Ascended.
There was some unhappiness.
The net result is life everlasting, though. The Reformed do not embrace life everlasting. They do embrace death everlasting, though.
“The Church came up with the doctrine of the Trinity out of the Scripture that it amassed”
To be accurate it was two heretics who formed their own churches who came up with the concept and doctrine of the Trinity; Tertullian (ca. 200A.D.), the first to use the term and the concept of three persons, one essence; Origen (ca. 230 A.D.), the idea of the Son “eternally begotten of the Father” included in the Nicene Creed a century later.
They are mighty toothpicks, though I would never characterize Jesus or His words as toothpicks.
Actually, it doesn't. I know of the Author, and His merits, and the Church which He established bears little resemblance to the RCC.
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