Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
It isn’t, not in clear terms. It was the Catholic Church which understood this teaching, it can be understood from the Bible but nowhere does it mention it specifically. This is not a problem to Catholics who have the Tradition of the Apostles.
Joh 19:26 When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son.
Who is this anti-Scriptura crowd?
They haven’t posted on this thread yet.
Always elevating the debate, eh, Mark?
What is the Gospel?
I answered before I read your post. Once again, Catholics don’t believe in Scripture Alone. We believe in Scripture, which came through and is supported by Tradition. Tradition cannot contradict the Scripture and it is protected by the Magisterium.
I have no problem telling you that I can’t post it from Scripture.
***It is interesting to note that the site you chose at least has the integrity to acknowledge the lack of solid information concerning the “death and assumption of Mary”.***
We do our best.
There is the belief of the Church, which we believe to be under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. This contrasts slightly with those who believe that only non Catholics can be guided by the Holy Spirit (into tens of thousands of denominations).
Thus you profess how very wrong you are. Then again, you profess to know nothing.
Long way around saying "Can't be done, impossible." Are you paid by the word?
I didn’t laugh and I can’t imagine any of them would laugh, cackle maybe but laugh in pure mirth, I don’t think so.
Are you saying that you aren’t a good teacher and you don’t know how to make things understandable to others?
Cue the clown car.
I realize it's easy to confuse the Scriptures with Calvin since Calvin writes very nearly every sentence in accord with God's word.
“Not Mary, not baptism, not the Eucharist or any of the other extra-biblical things that are Catholic beliefs.”
Could you show me in the Catechism any of these misconceptions? The reason I say the Catechism is that it explains all the beliefs of Catholics. The reason I ask you to post them is because you make the allegations.
That's EXACTLY the point. The word "Trinity" is NOT in the Bible. So-called sola scriptura fails.
***Better to ask for help.
Hint: Ignore help from one who doesn’t recognize the difference between John 7 and John 19.***
Are we fishing again? You do have a talent, I suppose.
***Does this verse prophesy Jesus or David? Or, is it better that you sift through Psalms 69 verse by verse throwing some into the “David bucket” and some in the “Jesus bucket”.***
I think that we should put Jesus in the Jesus bucket and David in the David bucket. There are parallels, obviously, but I don’t think that the Psalms 69 issue has any legs.
***I’m USUALLY conscious when I write, however.***
Conscious of what?
So start posting them buddy! I'm sure your anti-Catholic colleagues will excuse the delay.
It is written...
***As I asked, show me Sola Scriptura in Scripture that I might believe.
I doubt that is possible. After the “big boys” (the ones you have submitted your will and intellect to) got through with you you’d be groveling on your knees asking for forgiveness from men.***
Come on Reggie, you can do better than that. Why would you hitch your wagon to the sola scriptura crowd when you find them less credible than us. I think that you’re slipping and I’d like to know why. I have expected a much higher level from you.
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