Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Regardless, Aramaic and Koine Greek are three languages that Jesus almost certainly could speak fluently, as well as read and write. And he almost certainly could at least read Hebrew if not speak it and write it (but my money is on the belief that he could speak it, read it and write it - I think some of this language ability probably came from his divine nature, but that's just my speculation).
I certainly understand.
Reading through more of this thread, I can see that there's disagreement regarding Mary; a lot of it seems to be due to word games and what Protestants perceive Catholicism to say vs. what Catholics say Catholic teaching has to say.
Looking through the sections devoted specifically to Mary in the Catechism (which, for what it's worth, take up only 9 out of the 755 pages in the paperback version I have), I see that Catholic teaching on the matter, at least with regard to the Catechism, does NOT put Christ secondary to Mary.
Mary's grace is derived from Jesus. She was deemed immaculate upon the very presence of Jesus, conceived of the Holy Spirit (hence the Assumption, wherein she was pulled body and spirit into Heaven upon her physical death). A great deal is made of her faith and obedience to God and carrying out His Will (special notes are paid to how she, as a woman obeying God, undoes the knot of disobedience that Eve, another woman who disobeyed, brought forth). It is by her connection to Jesus Christ, born of the Holy Spirit, that she is venerated within the Catholic Church.
Quoting verbatim from the Catechism, Part One, Section Two, Chapter Three, Article Nine, Paragraph Six:
"Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men...flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different wars among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which but a sharing in this one source."
Essentially, Mary's role in the Catholic Church is nothing without Jesus, for all her importance flows from Him and from the Holy Spirit that God the Father gave to her, which she accepted willingly.
She is stated as the "Church's model of faith and charity", due to her "complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit."
So the Church's official teaching on the matter does not equate Mary with Jesus, nor gives her the same power that only He possesses. Only that her special nature as the Mother of God the Son Jesus Christ, our Creator born as man, enables her to have an important duty within the Church. To make a metaphor...Jesus is the straight and narrow road between man and God. Mary, to those who desire her aid, would be a lamppost to help light the way.
That's one way of looking at it, in any rate, based on the Catechism's words.
I will not deny though, reading through a number of the threads, that some take the idea of Mary's role in the Church WAY too far, overstating her position and ascribing to her properties that she does not have (Jesus "receiving an immaculate nature from a truly immaculate mother."? Really now.) Then again, as has been said a number of times by Catholics on this thread; the words of priests, followers do not equate to Catholic teaching. The Pope's words, when not proclaiming official Doctrine via an ex cathedra statement, do not equal Catholic teaching.
That's the basic gist of what I'm reading so far.
The challenge, I suppose, is to not take things too far with regards to Mary, remembering that her role in the Church is due to the Trinity:
God the Father's Will to have the Virgin Mary give birth to His Son.
Her bringing forth God the Son - our Messiah, Jesus Christ - into this world.
God the Holy Spirit's filling of her to bring about conception in a virgin.
To summarize: Catholic teaching does not equate Mary with Jesus in any way, and it is only because she gave birth to Jesus that she is venerated in such a manner. Anything beyond that is unofficial and is not Catholic Doctrine.
Does that about sum it up for the time being?
Great stuff! Man! I haven't thought about that for years! Our two bloods mingled be.
It's amazing he didn't come down with something seeing as ow he had some GREAT lines!
According to the RCC catechsim, found at Vatican.va, all Scripture must be interpreted by the magisiterium, the bishops and the pope before being read and understood by members of the church.
I asked you if the bolded phrase was found at Vatican.va.
Makes sense to moi.
And?
OLD REGGIE: WOW! Who is "we"?
An even bigger WOW! is to envision God "altering His divine plan" at all. God's divine plan was known to God from before the foundation of the world. All possibilities and contingencies and alternate paths were known to God before He created any of them. And from among all possibilities He made His choice.
But the peculiar hubris of Mariology seems to know no end. Now we have Mary altering God's divine plan.
Soon Mary will be found to have written God's divine plan.
God as ghostwriter; Mary as divine author, name above the title.
Thanks,
Leni
There is some ambiguity in that response. If you say to me, you don't feel tired do you? I could say NO as in no I don't or NO as in No you are wrong, I DO feel tired.
So Petronski, which did you mean, please?
Autobiography?
Ummm, that's not my understanding of Catholic Doctrine from everything I've heard and read. How does what you just said account for the "Immaculate Conception" or the "Assumption of Mary"? These are Catholic teachings that are doctrine, and go far beyond just the fact that she gave birth to Jesus or simple veneration. One presumes that just like Jesus, she was without sin (a blasphemy, if one is to believe the Prophet Isaiah, to name just one) and the other assumes (no pun) that she instead of dying and being buried like any other human, she was "assumed bodily into heaven", even though there is no such tradition in the early church nor is any such thing ever mentioned by any church father. Period. The "assumption" doesn't come into tradition until very late, and it doesn't become doctrine "ex cathedra" until the 19th century, wasn't it?
lol, yes my thoughts were all aflame in those days, lol.
'wars' should be 'ways'.
What I get for typing from the book instead of going for the online version, it seems. @_@;
LOL. Well maybe your time would be better spent reading less Milton and the Metaphysicals and Dr. Johnson, and more of the Bible in order to learn what Protestants believe.
Well it makes as much sense as reading Dante to see what Catholics believe.
Exactly right.
It seems either the Trinity has been expanded to four members, or Mary has simply taken the place of the Holy Spirit.
Pitiful.
Then you don't believe in petitionary prayer? Do you think it's wrong and ineffectual or just ineffectual?
I doubt that you will get any Catholics on this forum to disagree with that statement. It is what is taught and commonly believed among Catholics.
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