Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
***Sorry brother, but if someone professes a different Gospel, he is on the way to hell.***
Your posts do not reflect the Gospel of Christ. It doesn’t even seem to reflect Paul. Does that mean that you are going to hell?
***He has stated that he rejects the true Gospel of salvation by faith alone***
James 2:
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Faith alone is verboten. And this is the only place where faith alone is mentioned in the Bible. It is forbidden. Has James been removed from your Scripture?
***On what basis would you state that he wouldn’t be going to hell for not believing the Gospel that we are saved by?***
You don’t give any indication that you understand the Gospel, or Paul, or James...
***That sure upset you!***
It amused me to see a self declared Christian spouting such gibberish.
***Exactly what it was suppose to do and that is why Christ preached more on Hell than He did on Heaven.***
Prove it. My Scripture indicates that Jesus spent the most time on teaching how people were to behave, how to come to God and eternal salvation.
***I didn’t say you had to go to hell, only that you were if you continued to put your trust in a false Gospel, faith plus works.***
You passed an arrogant Judgement on me. Very un Christian.
I’ve recently shown some major misunderstandings of Paul that have been bandied about. Shall I continue to enlighten you guys as to what Scripture actually says?
***I have no idea what you are talking about here. ***
I know that and appreciate that you can admit it. You claim that you are saved once and for all. I showed you that Paul actually says that you are saved, you are being saved and you will be saved, but you must work out your salvation. All these conditions must exist. All together. The mathematical operator ‘and’.
***And what do you think that the ramifications will be for that Judgement?
At that Judgement for the saved, rewards or loss of rewards (1Cor.3) ***
What rewards or loss of rewards might they be?
***You are trusting the Roman Catholic Church, I am trusting the word of God.
We will see in eternity which one was gave us the true Gospel.***
You post as if you do not know the word of God; you don’t seem to know Paul or James or...
***Ofcourse one can know another’s eternal state, if doesn’t believe in the Lord Jesus Christ he is going to hell!***
I thought that you said in your last post that you had nothing further to say to me. Was that a misunderstanding similar to the misunderstandings of Scripture?
Nice to see that you reserve the power of Judgement to yourself. How is your Judgement Room laid out?
***So, if one tells me that they have rejected the true Gospel of Christ,(faith alone in Christ alone)***
Show me chapter and verse. I have already given you verse which forbids faith alone.
7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
It pleased the council gathered there and it pleased the Holy Spirit after they sought for answers according to the scriptures (vv. 15-16 where the prophet Amos is quoted). It seems that after a time of disputing, there arose unity among the brethren. Disputing gave way to accord (one of the key characteristics of the early church—see earlier chapters in Acts). This unity is what pleased the Holy Spirit (and not the disputing).
Ephesians 4:2-6
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
For, what else can be pleasing to the Holy Spirit except true, Christian unity. Or is Christ divided?
***I am not the one ‘judging you’ the word of God is.***
Ah. Bibliolatry. Do you worship the Bible?
***I do note that you call yourself a Catholic and not a Christian.***
Do you have examples?
***How someone can say that they are saved and yet hope to be saved is really amazing!***
It comes from reading the Bible.
***But at least you received the true Gospel on these threads, but you have chosen to reject it for the false gospel of Roman Catholicism (Gal.1)***
You have shown nothing to indicate that you know the Gospel - rather the opposite.
For someone with nothing more to say to me, you are extremely verbose.
I know that and appreciate that you can admit it. You claim that you are saved once and for all. I showed you that Paul actually says that you are saved, you are being saved and you will be saved, but you must work out your salvation. All these conditions must exist. All together. The mathematical operator ‘and’.
No, I didn't understand what you were talking about!
You haven't showed anything of the sort.
Paul writes that you are saved and then produce fruit that show that you are saved (Phil.2,) and you are predestinated for heaven (Rom.8)
Salvation is an event, sanctification is an process.
[ ***And what do you think that the ramifications will be for that Judgement? At that Judgement for the saved, rewards or loss of rewards (1Cor.3) ***]
What rewards or loss of rewards might they be?
Crowns.
[ ***You are trusting the Roman Catholic Church, I am trusting the word of God. We will see in eternity which one was gave us the true Gospel.*** ]
You post as if you do not know the word of God; you don’t seem to know Paul or James or...
Oh, I know both, because I know Christ as my personal saviour.
James is speaking of the fruit that is produced from being saved and seen by men.
Paul speaks of being justified before God and saved.
You haven't enlightened anyone on anything yet, but you could stop wasting our time.
***2Cor.2:
15 For we are the good odour of Christ unto God, in them that are saved and in them that perish.***
Do you have a clue as to what this means?
***14
5 6 7 8 9 But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in Christ and manifests through us the odor of the knowledge of him in every place.
15
For we are the aroma of Christ for God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,
16
to the latter an odor of death that leads to death, to the former an odor of life that leads to life. Who is qualified 10 for this?
17
For we are not like the many who trade on the word of God; but as out of sincerity, indeed as from God and in the presence of God, we speak in Christ. ***
I see many traders here.
***When you pray, do you ever wait (listen) for the answer? Why is that not plain to you?***
The conversation was not about me; it was about your claim that the Lord talks to you. I asked you how. Do you know or not know?
***It is the very nature of scripture to speak to the one reading it. When you read something, you comprehend its import. Well, the scriptures are the Word of God!***
Act 8: 26-40. Read the lesson of the eunuch.
***There are many other examples to be found of the efficacy of scripture. When the believer reads it, it instructs him it admonishes him, it exhorts him, it rebukes him, it commends him. It talks to him!***
Bibliolatry 101. Thank you for the lesson.
I asked some questions, will you answer them?
I did not say nor even infer anything in your questions.
If you can’t or won’t, just say so.
One thing about Paul, I think he only mentions Mary once, in passing. That’s a pretty strong statement of the importance of Mary to our salvation and edification to a person that honors the Bible.
so YOU are the only one with the “true” gospel?
Ain’t it amazin’?
It amused me to see a self declared Christian spouting such gibberish.
No, just stating the facts, hell or heaven, true Gospel (sola fide) vs the false Gospel, (faith plus works), you choose your own eternal destination.
[ ***Exactly what it was suppose to do and that is why Christ preached more on Hell than He did on Heaven.***]
Prove it. My Scripture indicates that Jesus spent the most time on teaching how people were to behave, how to come to God and eternal salvation.
Actually, He preached more on the subject of hell than He did on the subject of Heaven.
[ ***I didn’t say you had to go to hell, only that you were if you continued to put your trust in a false Gospel, faith plus works.*** ]
You passed an arrogant Judgement on me. Very un Christian.
No, you passed judgement on yourself by stating you rejected the true Gospel.
I only told you what that judgement was going to be, which is exactly what a Christian is suppose to do.
My family sometimes rejected ME when I gave my life to Christ. But I still loved them and even led a couple to the Lord before they died. Still working on my brother...only in prayer though. He’s so hostile sometimes to the gospel and I don’t know why.
You can’t just keep Christ to yourself. He wants to be shared with others. Their salvation is worth more than my comfort.
It won't be my judgement, it will be God's and it is laid out very clearly in Rev.20.
You haven't given me any verses that prove faith alone because they don't exist!
As for the scriptures that state that it is only by faith that you must be saved they are Rom.4:5-6, Eph.2:8-9, Tit.3:5, Gal.3:21 to name just a few.
Now, stop pestering me with your nonsense.
Alright!! Sounds good to me. Thank you for bestowing such an honor on me. I will wear it proudly (a medal DOES come with it doesn’t it???)
Look under the spiritual gifts. Healing is one of them.
AMEN.
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