Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
If by “Rome” you mean most of Italy (not counting local patois, creoles and like that) that’s my understanding too.
God didn’t choose her for nothing
616 posted on June 1, 2008 5:36:55 PM MDT by wardaddy
Miriam's role was not her characteristics or value, 1. Miriam is a daughter who has no brothers 2. Joseph is descended from King David. 3. The inheritance exception granted for the daughters of Zelophehad 4. If a woman who has no brothers marries a man of the same tribe 5. Joseph and Miriam are married (each descended from King David)
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
but her bloodlines to King David,
having no brothers and
the exception started by
the daughters of Zelophehad.
There are five things that are important here:
and is descended from King David.
But he is from a line prohibited to inherit.
(These were daughters who had no brothers)
is in effect (Numbers 26, 27, 36; Joshua 17; 1 Chronicles 7).
She can inherit forever.
thus providing Miriam with permanent inheritance
of the Kingship of David for her to pass on to her son Yah'shua (Messiahship).
Yep!
I like Donne a lot, but I think George Herbert was my favorite among the Metaphysicals!
very cool X, thanks
It is all going to go back to one thing and only one thing. Either you have Faith in Jesus Christ and believe the Gospel or you don't. Bringing Mary into it or any of the other stuff won't help you. It may make you feel better but in the end it is only by Grace Alone through Faith Alone in Christ Alone that we are saved.
Done has more wit and beauty of language. Herbert has soul.
I admire Donne enormously, but I love Herbert! (Even named my cat for him after college!)
Well I fell into american lit, Emerson etc. My friends tho forced me to accompany them to taverns and I was not the scholar I should have been, there towards the end.
When thou hast Done thou hast not Donne, [unless Dawg is doing the typing]
I got some kind of award for my discourse on To a Flea
It's such a shame you don't see the irreconcilable contradiction between these two sentences.
I guess they were more into seventeenth century than American! If they were eighteenth century, it would have been coffee houses, which might have made the studying easier! ;-)
lol
JUDITH ANNE: I'm down wid dat.
What's the point of the magisterium's "interpretation" if you can bring your own understanding to the Bible's meaning?
Catholics clearly are told they must accept the magisterium's interpretation of Scripture, regardless of when or even if they ever get around to reading the Bible themselves.
Thus many Catholics don't read the Bible because they prefer to read the catechism and what the magisterium tells them the Bible says which is what you just high-fived.
When a Catholic finally does get around to reading Bible, the rolls of the Protestant churches grow, by the grace of God alone.
I didn't think it was only Catholics who posted prayer request threads -- or posted on them that they certainly would pray as requested. I was sure I've seen screen names of Protestants . . .
Amen, brother.
Mary would be ashamed of what has been taught in her name.
I'm going to try to be serious here a minute. Whaddya mean, "... won't help you?" It SOUNDS like all that life in Christ is about is getting one's ticket punched on the Holy Land Express. Either you have the ticket or you don't. If you do, cool, that's it.
From MY POV — and another "envious sprite" will call this self-congratulatory — there's way more going on here than admission through the platform turnstile. I don't go to Mass or read my Bible and my office or pray my Rosary or study or discuss or attempt the occasional good work to "get to heaven". I do it to enjoy God and all He has done and is doing, and to enjoy Him more fully, in Himself and in His saints who "make Him glorious" (in the sense that one way He shows His glory is in the works he does in the saints.)
If the only "help" is getting one's ticket punched, then maybe this isn't help. But it's good, it's from God, and I'm not stopping.
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