Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
It's a little hard to take the Scripture fetish seriously when it wasn't an issue for fifteen centuries.
This goes beyond disregard. This is 1st degree blaspheme with malice afore thought.
INDEED.
Joya gave me a prophecy last night that went on at some repeated length exhorting Christians to not give notice to, honor to, . . . and other similar words--to spiritual leaders WHOM GOD WOULD ACTUALLY ANOINT IN MIRACULOUS WAYS--not only because it was offensive to HIM but because . . . how was it . . . it would be a kind of test . . . some even that God Himself would truly anoint at a point in time would later veer off and lead people astray.
That God wanted to insure that our devotion, OUR FOCUS, our honor was TOTALLY ON HIM--FOR OUR OWN SAFETY AS WELL AS IT BEING THE ONLY THING FITTING.
I immediately thought of all the hoopla and deference that a lot of TV preachers AND RC personages ROUTINELY 'COMMAND,' AND EXPECT.
Shocking.
Nice to see such a Jesus’ focused prayer,
for a change.
Hmm, gotta watch out for that "blaspheme." A lot of it goin' round.
Thank you to referring to "thought." It is something Catholics exercise from time to time.
Now to make a case, you may need to show not only that an act was committed but how the law applies to that act. If I snatch a baby out of a street, it may be kidnapping or it may be a heroic rescue.
With the possible exception of "Gentile Lady", I have seen nothing that is blasphemous in your list.
No wait, blasphemous and ludicrous are not synonyms, are they?)
Obviously I need to help of your reason, if any, to show me how these break any commandments.
And to save you trouble, allow me to point out that just saying something over and over again in tones of increasing horror is not an argument. A thesis needs more than repetition to be successfully demonstrated.
Yes it is.
YES IT IS.
YES IT IS!
real Christians.
. . .
Trying to wrap my understanding around that . . . context and all . . .
Is there any other way to infer that that is anything other than
haughty?
Is that a new dogma replacing “Mary Meek and Mild?’
haughty?
Yes: factual.
Ahhhhhhhh, must be the new enclycical's edicts propagating the new propaganda about the new
prescribed
most holy
most exclusive
Most reverential, most venerational, most adorational emotional attitude proper for use when facing officials, images, icons, statues, apparitions, . . .
most pristine from Little Pebble Peter's Pen [belatedly found under a fossilized towel in a newly discovered Roman bath--in Turkey somewhere]
obligatory for all the faithful
designed for the sake of leaving
thin skins milquey white and unruffled.
. . . only in the Harvard Lampoon edition.
Prayers, certainly.
What have you to do with כִּנֹּרוֹתֵ?
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church [τους πρεσβυτερους της εκκλησιας]So yeah, as a matter of fact, not only laying on of hands but also anointing by elders is practiced in the Catholic Church. Sometimes we have services devoted to the Sacrament of Healing. Before my foot surgery last year I was anointed.
[note he does NOT say any sanctified Tom, Dick, or Harriet but the elders of the church] [of course, this is the same guy who says that there shouldn't be many teachers among us, while some Protestants think each of them is a teacher, pretty much with the results of which James warns us],
and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord,; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, [please note that it does NOT specify that he will be saved from his illness] and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
I have seen miracles. They do not pass protestant muster because the Protestant canon for determining miracles is, "If it's reported by a Catholic it didn't happen."
Tra la. God is great and He heals.
Doesn’t take living in China long to get used to being called a barbarian.
I now consider it quite a complement.
Akin to my thinking . . .
I thought . . . must be part of David’s band.
How nice.
Thxx.
My Bible does not have an Apocrypha, only the original 73 books.
Ahhhhh. . .
as in
factually haughty?
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