Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
And none come to Christ except the Father call him. In other words, the elect come to Christ, called by the Father, the rest are the depraved wicked and their lot is Hell.
Why, I thought all the RC’s were Biblical scholars...
Yes it does. It does not say what Cauvin claims it does.
We don't know why God elected some and not others...
That puzzle is easy to solve: He did not. God loves us all and wants us all to be saved.
***ROTFLOL! Your method of debate is pretty clear to anyone reading these posts, Mark.
I posted the Scripture verses you requested in post 5,447. That you do not understand those Scripture verses is not within my ability to remedy. Illumination is the work of the Holy Spirit. ***
Obfuscation is not.
You have proven nothing: none of your posting even refers to hell or predestination.
If you're referring to Catholics, where'd you get an idea like that?
People can be saved by living a moral life without knowing anything about Christ? (I’ll leave out the Catholic church) That is such heresy, mgist. Christ is the beginning, middle, and end of salvation. Without Him there IS no salvation.
*** People do know the differences between what cults teach and what bonafide churches who preach the gospel teach. It’s not rocket science. The author has probably studied this for years.***
Probably? The Sword of Damocles is dangling over your soul when you make statements like that.
More Calvin?
You have presented exactly zero verse which supports predestination to hell. Calvin is wrong, and so are all of his supporters.
***And none come to Christ except the Father call him. In other words, the elect come to Christ, called by the Father, the rest are the depraved wicked and their lot is Hell.***
In other words? You mean in words other than what is in the Bible.
Sola Scriptura is a lie, isn’t it?
Do you imagine God is not powerful enough to save those who, through no fault of their own, had no opportunity to learn of Christ, but led life as He commanded?
Will God damn that person based on a technicality?
False Traditions of Men: In other words, the elect come to Christ, called by the Father, the rest are the depraved wicked and their lot is Hell.
Seems like sola scriptura fails here, unless that blue part can be found in Scripture.
Amen, Dr. E. Great post!
He’s dead, Jim.
lol, so all those that aren’t called by the Father, and are not in Christ, what is their lot? What scripture do you have supporting another view? What anything do you have? If they aren’t called by the Father, are they “called by the mother?” lol
***False Traditions of Men: In other words, the elect come to Christ, called by the Father, the rest are the depraved wicked and their lot is Hell.
Seems like sola scriptura fails here, unless that blue part can be found in Scripture.***
The good Dr. E. is surpassingly unable to provide verse that supports predestination to hell. None of her quoted verse proves anything to that effect.
She says it does, but it obviously doesn’t. I’m not sure short of language lessons what can be done here in order to rescue her from her theology of hate and death.
And are you saying the “authorities” can contradict itself?
Over 20 books, written before 100AD, were never questioned as not being inspired, hence always deemed from oral Apostolistic tradition. The fight was over 5 books suspected as not being inspired and geographically flip-flopped around by various “authoritative” councils.
The only REAL authority is GOD and He made it clear what would be in the Bible (Temporal speaking) before 100AD.
***lol, so all those that aren’t called by the Father, and are not in Christ, what is their lot? What scripture do you have supporting another view? What anything do you have? If they aren’t called by the Father, are they “called by the mother?” lol***
Who is not called by the Father? Name them.
Hey, talking about the Catholic church again?
You didn’t say “please”
At Jamnia? LOL
A gathering of Pharisees ripping Christian books out of the Bible is hardly the voice of God.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.