Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Sneaks at work.
How dare they.
And how do we know that all of the NT writers wrote by the inspiration of God? Because, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church discerned which writings were inspired by that same Spirit.
Protestantism is odd when you really think about it. It takes from Catholic teaching only what it wants and then claims that the Church is wrong on those points. I would be more inclined to believe that if the Catholic Church is that wrong about so many things then how could they be right about the Bible?
You wrote:
“Who said that.”
I have heard Protestants say that often enough.
“You wouldn’t stoop to creating a straw man would you?”
I never do.
“What was The Society of Jesus created for?”
To renew the Church. Originally the band of men who gathered under the leadership of St. Ignatius believed they would travel to Jerusalem and be martyred by the Turks. As the old Catholic Encyclopedia notes:
The Society was not founded with the avowed intention of opposing Protestantism. Neither the papal letters of approbation nor the Constitutions of the order mention this as the object of the new foundation. When Ignatius began to devote himself to the service of the Church, he had probably not even heard of the names of the Protestant Reformers. His early plan was rather the conversion of Mohammedans, an idea which, a few decades after the final triumph of the Christians over the Moors in Spain, must have strongly appealed to the chivalrous Spaniards.
“Read John 6 and tell me why those disciples walked away from Christ at that time.”
It probably had to do with there concrete materialistic way of thinking at the time. Remember in John 3 Nicodemus had trouble understanding Jesus teaching of rebirth, “How can one enter into his mother’s womb and be born again?”. In John 4 the Samaritan woman had trouble with understanding the “water” that Jesus was promising to give, “give me this water tat I thirst not and don’t have to come here again”.
Now in John 6 the crowds, including fringe disciples were making the same error, not understanding that Jesus was speaking metaphorically about spiritual things when He spoke of eating and drinking His body and blood.
***And no angel has deluded us about that.***
Be very careful about self-delusion.
2 Cor 11:
13
10 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ.
14
And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.
15
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
***God COULD inspire in Pig Latin, but He didn’t. I’ll stick with the Jewish canon as the Jews received and delivered it; not with Rome’s rewrite centuries later by way of the Greeks.***
Hebrew almost died out as a language. Greek was the language of the world and many more Jews spoke it than Hebrew. The Septuagint is still accepted as Jewish text today in much of the world.
Still quoting the inaccurate KJV regarding 2 Tim 3 13-15?
Try a Bible that is God-based and not government based.
I’m not in the least bit deluded about Jesus or my salvation or His grace in my life.
Oh, get a room, you two.
Yeah, really...
***I was talking about your analogy of what we believe. THAT is foolish.***
Did you even consider the founders that I mentioned - and could mention a lot more? Mary Baker Eddy. William Booth. Ellen G. White. Samuel Seabury? Dig into their personal lives and their beliefs about themselves and see what the character and the doctrines of their religions are. Compare them.
Show us the verse that says that any are predestined to hell.
It's in the ICR. Sola Cauvin.
I believe it’s 2nd Timothy 3:16 in which it’s declared that all scripture is given by the inspiration of God. Timothy declared that all of them wrote under inspiration.
Okay, Dish: What did Seabury do ... or think or whatever?
Pentacost, at least.
I try, but don’t know if I’ve succeeded, LOL.
Why do you limit that to the New Testament?
All 73 books were written by the inspiration of God.
And 2nd Timothy 3:16 SAID that all scripture was written under the inspiration of God. S’nuff for me.
I would appreciate either the RM or you, Mark, deleting your post to me. If you cannot do that, RM, I would very much like to ask Mark to remove his post. If you want the post to stand, Mark, just delete the post to me and repost the comment to no one in particular.
Old Reggie has kindly given us what looks to be a link Mark is using, word for word with a lot less hassle.
Thanks.
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