The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Petronski]

If this works, the Greek:

εἰ δὲ χάριτι, οὐκέτι ἐξ ἔργων, ἐπεὶ ἡ χάρις οὐκέτι γίνεται χάρις.

The Latin:

si autem gratia non ex operibus alioquin gratia iam non est gratia

The Douay-Rheims:

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace.

French Darby:

Or, si c'est par la grâce, ce n'est plus sur le principe des oeuvres, puisque autrement la grâce n'est plus la grâce.

German Elberfelder:

Wenn aber durch Gnade, so nicht mehr aus Werken; sonst ist die Gnade nicht mehr Gnade.

KJV

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Hmmm.
One of these things is not like the other.
One of these things just isn't the same.

[TASMANIANRED]

It is shameful and heart breaking at the same time.

[John Leland 1789]

I wonder how many church organizations still use Matthew 16:13-18 to try to find the founding of their own particular VISIBLE church. I can count four right off the top of my head:

LDS Mormon-ism (and all of the offshoots, too, I suppose)
Church of Christ-ism (Campbellite)
Landmark Baptist-ism
Catholicism

All from seeing the “church,” and making the pre-conclusion, after looking at their own glories in the mirror, that the word is always talking about the same assembly every time you see the word, and that it must always be THEM.

So, I just keep throwing in to the mix, that Christ was born to be the King of the Jews. There is no NEW TESTAMENT yet in Matthew 16. There CAN NOT be a New Testament there in any way shape of form.

Matthew is a continuation of the Old Testament, the entire period being discussed being inaugurated by an Old Testament prophet (John the Baptist) who would have stood for his own antetype (Elijah) in reality had Israel accepted their Messiah/King, Jesus Christ.

Elijah's return is promised before the return of Jesus Christ to this earth (Malachi; Matthew), and John Baptist would have fulfilled that under the condition of Israel's repentance while the Lord Jesus Christ was on this earth.

There is no reason why the CHURCH of Matthew 16 cannot be speaking of the Messianic assembly (this is what “church” means — “assembly called out” - the congregation) as per Psalm 22:22, 25.

“I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

“Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

“For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

“My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.”

This is a Hebrew Church - the seed of ISRAEL. Psalm 22 is the passage quoted in Hebrews 2:12, where the word “church” is used for “congregation” in Psalm 22.

“Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the CHURCH will I sing praise unto thee.”

Hebrews 2:12. HEBREWS 2:12 H E B R E W S 2:12. A Hebrew church/congregation. I mean, we still use the word “congregation” to mean “church” even today.

The “church” of Matthew chapter 16 can mean a Hebrew Messianic Eatern-Sky-watching (for the King to return) CONGREGATION (that has nothing to do with ANYTHING we see in a “church” today), just as easily as it can mean anything else.

And so, for the discriminating, RIGHTLY-DIVIDING (2 Timothy 2:15) Bible reader, I suggest that the “church” of Matthew chapter 16 is not

LDS Morman,
Church of Christ (Campbellite),
Landmark Baptist,

NOR

Catholic (any branch you want to pick).

[John Leland 1789]

What is present there, if it is even yet there, is Jewish and Messianic.

[MarkBsnr]

***It is shameful and heart breaking at the same time.***

Latin

Ave Maria, gratia plena,
Dominus tecum,
benedicta tu in mulieribus,
et benedictus fructus ventris tui Iesus.
Sancta Maria mater Dei,
ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostrae.
Amen

English
Hail Mary, full of grace,
our Lord is with thee,
blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
pray for us sinners, now, and in
the hour of our death.
Amen.

French
Je vous salue, Marie, pleine de grâce.
Le Seigneur est avec vous.
Vous êtes bénie entre toutes les femmes,
et Jésus, le fruit de vos entrailles, est béni.
Sainte Marie, Mère de Dieu,
Priez pour nous, pauvres pécheurs,
maintenant et à l’heure de notre mort.
Amen

Cree
Kit’atamiskâtin Marie, siyâkaskineskâkuyan Manito o sâkihituwin, kitehîk ayâw Kise-Manito. Ispitchi kakkiyaw iskwewok kiya ayiwâk kit’iteyittâkusin ayiwâk mina iteyittâkusin Jesus ka ki kikiskawat.
Kitchitwa Marie Kise-Manito Wekâwimisk ayamihestamâwinân, piyâstâhuyâk, anotch mina wi nipiyâki. Pitane ekusi ikkik.
Amen

German
Gegrüßet seist du, Maria, voll der Gnade,
der Herr ist mit dir.
Du bist gebenedeit unter den Frauen, und gebenedeit ist die Frucht deines Leibes, Jesus. Heilige Maria,
Mutter Gottes,
bitte für uns Sünder jetzt und in der Stunde
unseres Todes.
Amen

Spanish
Dios te salve, María, llena eres de gracia,
el Señor es contigo.
Bendita tú eres entre todas las mujeres,
y bendito es el fruto de tu vientre, Jesús.
Santa María, Madre de Dios,
ruega por nosotros, pecadores,
ahora y en la hora de nuestra muerte.
Amen

Italian
Ave Maria, piena di grazia,
il Signore è con te.
Tu sei benedetta fra le donne
e benedetto è il frutto del tuo seno, Gesú.
Santa Maria, Madre di Dio,
prega per noi peccatori,
adesso e nell’ora della nostra morte.
Amen

Portuguese
Avé Maria, cheia de graça,
o Senhor é convosco.
Bendita sois vós entre as mulheres;
bendito é o fruto do vosso ventre, Jesus.
Santa Maria, mãe de Deus,
rogai por nós, pecadores,
agora e na hora da nossa morte.
Amen

Tagalog
(Phillipines) Aba Ginoong Maria, napupuno ka ng grasiya,
Ang Panginoong Diyos ay sumasaiyo.
Bukod kang pinagpala sa babaeng lahat
At pinagpala rin naman ang anak mong si Hesus.
Santa Maria, Ina ng Diyos
Ipanalangin mo kaming makasalanan
Ngayon at kung kami’y mamamatay.
Amen

Indonesian
Salam Maria penuh rahmat Tuhan besertamu,
Terpujilah engkau diantara wanita,
dan terpujilah buah tubuhmu Yesus,
Santa Maria Bunda Allah,
Doakanlah kami yang berdosa ini,
sekarang dan selama-lamanya.
Amin

Dutch
Wees gegroet, Maria, vol van genade.
de Heer is met u.
Gij zijt de gezegende onder de vrouwen,
en gezegend is Jezus, de vrucht van uw schoot.
Heilige Maria, Moeder van God.
Bid voor ons zondaars,
nu en in het uur van onze dood.
Amen

Finnish
Terve, Maria, armoitettu,
Herra sinun kanssasi;
Siunattu sinä naisten joukossa ja
siunattu kohtusi hedelmä Jeesus.
Pyhä Maria, Jumalan äiti,
rukoille meidän syntisten puolesta
nyt ja kuolemamme hetkellä.
Aamen

She received the Holy Spirit and yet is vilified. I don’t think that that will sit that well at the Judgement for those who sneer.

[enat]

In verses 4-36 of Matthew 23 Jesus qualifies His endorsement of the teaching and authority of the scribes and Pharisees. In verses 1-3, He was either being ironic, “They presume to sit in Moses’ seat so you had better mind them”, or He was agreeing with the objectives of their teaching but criticizing the aplication, (”they are trying to safeguard the purity of Israel and its faithfulness to the covenant, so listen to them; just don’t do what they do”).

He did not break the law but fulfilled it and informed it with the true content.

[Petronski]

Matthew 16:18, Christ makes Peter His Vicar on earth. What is present there is Catholic, and uniquely Catholic.

Everyone else is rushing to cast off what is found in the New Testament...only the Catholic Church holds fast.

[TASMANIANRED]

Mary has drawn more people to Jesus through her gentleness than any number of yelling preachers.

Joyful submission to the will of God. Fidelity through the joy and the sorrow. Total trust.

[Mad Dawg]

IN fairness (just for giggles), the term "Protestant" seems to be ambiguous. If it is indeed a proper noun and thus worthy of a big 'p' at the beginning, to whom does it refer? My impression was that at the beginning it referred to those who answered the question, "Is the Pope a Catholic?" with a resounding "HAIL no!". I mean all those who thought that the "Religion" of which the Holy Father was the official honcho was NOT universal in any meaningful sense of the word.

Now, judging by what I read here, there are those who think it means "sort of vaguely Calvinist" and Unitarians and maybe Episcopalians are not really "Protestant".

And the question of whether the word is a "proper" (as opposed to vulgar) noun (especially when one considers that its form is that of a participle, a verbal adjective, so it must be an adjective used as a substantive -- my head hurts) is , well, confusing.

The target doesn't define itself. So let's just fire a lot of rounds and hope some of them hit. It may not be right, but it's sho' 'nuff understandable.

[Quix]

WOW! Two before 19:30. Really racking em up this evening.

Thanks.

[Quix]

WOW! Two before 19:30. Really racking em up this evening.

Thanks.

[Quix]

WELL PUT.

However, SOME RELIGIOUS clubs need more fantasies than others . . . must be something to do with keeping the donations flowing or some such.

[Quix]

Oh, dear!

Now Brother . . . Christ died for them, too!

And we can’t be caught TOOOOO often engaging in their uhhhh . . . level of games.

LOL.

[Petronski]

In at least the first seven chapters of Acts, they were ALL temple-worshipping, Mosaic law-abiding, circumcision-observing, pork/shrimp-abstaining JEWS.

And yet (or should I say despite that?) since the Apostles and Disciples at that time believed that Jesus was Christ the Savior who died for our sins and was Resurrected, they were CHRISTIANS.

[Quix]

EEEWWWWWWWWWW

And a new low is reached in culinary and RC imagry.

[Quix]

You mean the pharisees 2,000 years ago didn’t have a corner on self-righteous assumptions?

Who’d a thunk!

[MarkBsnr]

***Mary has drawn more people to Jesus through her gentleness than any number of yelling preachers.

Joyful submission to the will of God. Fidelity through the joy and the sorrow. Total trust.***

I trust and believe in God Almighty. I believe for the same reasons that St. Augustine did. I stand on the shoulders of theological giants.

[MarkBsnr]

***WOW! Two before 19:30. Really racking em up this evening.

Thanks.***

Are you referring to Petronski’s polska kielbasa?

[Mad Dawg]

One day I hope, dear Bro', that you get to listen to the Matthew Passion, by .S. Bach, with the libretto in front of you. (if you haven't already, that is.)

I can't do the German from memory, but Peter, as I recall, "weinete bitterlich," after denying Christ.

Have we, who love Him, not denied him? And has He not, in His beyond our imagining mercy, taken us aside and said, "Look. Get a grip. Do you love me?"

It SEEMS to me that each of us has the ability to opportunity to look up from the fire in the chilly morning and say, "I do not know the man."

And having done so, each of us finds incredible solace and hope in Isaiah: Thus says the high and lofty One that inhabiteth Eternity, whose name is Holy, "I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

It would seem that in sorrow and penitence we sinners are closest to God. In our grief is our joy and the fulfillment of all we ever hoped for.

How can we not praise Him?

[MarkBsnr]

***EEEWWWWWWWWWW

And a new low is reached in culinary and RC imagry.***

Are you referring to Calvin’s polska kielbasa?