Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
***God sorts us Prottys all out quite comfortably.***
Funny, although I have seen you snuggle up to the Reformed on occasion, I didn’t think that you had embraced their theology. Strange.
***Perhaps trusting us to Him would be progress.***
We trust Him completely. We do not make up our own theology on the fly.
I watched Fr. Joseph Mary this morning (on the 15th anniversary of his ordination) celebrating Mass on EWTN. In the course of the Mass he thanked God: "Help me to fulfill the ministry You have given me in spite of my unworthiness."
Mary herself said "He who is mighty has done great things through me."
Tattling seems to be an enjoyable and fun time for some folks here. LOL.
The quote is:
Luk 1:49 Because he that is mighty hath done great things to me: and holy is his name.
And yet some who proclaim their Christianity loudly have rotten hearts as evinced by their own words and actions.
Their fruit is rotten but they only see other’s faults and perceived faults. Logs and splinters seem to obfuscate their view.
Tattling?
No, of course not.
I’m trying to foster a discussion among you. It seems one of you is quite wrong.
Nice to see that somebody has lent you a copy of the Gospels. Now that you have read it, you have to put it into context in order to understand it.
***It’s all about election. Who chooses whom. Even if it feels like we’re the ones making the choice, it’s all of and by and for God’s will through Jesus Christ.
“Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.” — John 15:16***
In John 13-17, Jesus is alone with his disciples. He chose them to be His disciples. This is not a general statement about the entire world. He is telling them this specifically to specific individuals that He chose to fulfill the offices of the fledgling Church.
***God won’t let me go, but if I will to leave Him, He still won’t let me go? Or leaving Him, I am let go? But He doesn’t let me go? So if He doesn’t let me go, but I will to go, my will is not His will-—but still, He doesn’t let me go?***
The way that I understand it is that once the Reformed God hijacks your soul, you cannot get away no matter what you do. Now you must do works to show that you are hijacked which are really really important except that they aren’t and don’t matter. You can go out and sin and you will, but the Reformed God won’t let you sin TOO much and will pull you back in time to get that limo ride.
Oh, and Mary occupies a few verses in Luke, she might be mentioned during the Passion, but she is normally overlooked at Pentecost.
I'm glad you like it and him. He's an exquisite preacher, most of the time.
The great thing about a Dominican parish now that we're recovering from the feel-good excesses of Vat II is that it IS the "Order of Preachers" after all, and they are committed to prayer and study done in the support of preaching. They take preaching as seriously as I do and more seriously than many Catholic pastors.
One of our guys just left for doctoral studies but the two that are still with us are devoted to Christ and to the Gospel. So we can count on a good homily just about at every Mass. I have told the pastor more than once that our parish is in a golden age of good preaching, instruction, and piety.
And thanks for the link. Now that we hve power again, I'll go check it out.
Well, what more can be said? Surely you have covered everything.
I withdraw from the discussion.
Do they not even see? Can they not hear themselves? Can their egos not take anyone believing differently than themselves?
I have to honestly say that I don’t care what their beliefs are, (their actions are another story) I KNOW what I believe and I know that God will take care of the situation. I don’t limit God, and I don’t think that I’m in charge of their souls. If I seriously worry about someone’s soul, I take it to God because I could talk ‘til I’m blue in the face and it won’t do any good unless the Spirit moves them and they assent.
The best evangelization tool is to live one’s faith in God.
Again, SOME believe this, most DO NOT. My church is non-denominational and Spirit-filled. We believe what the Bible says.
Then answer this question, is your entire congregation in 100% unanimous agreement on what EVERY SINGLE verse in Scripture means?
Folks make it seem so hard to understand the Gospel. It isn’t. Some parts of it are mysteries for sure, but the simple Gospel of Jesus Christ is just that—simple. Why would He make it difficult to know Him? Or to follow Him?
I agree with you. The Church has been doing things the same way for two thousand years. He told us what to do and we've been doing it ever since.
Cherish it and encourage him. What we have found is that the loneliest people on Monday are our Elders who teach on Friday, Saturday and Sunday so we make it a practice to “esteem them very highly in love for their works sake”.
10-4
BUT do the Scriptures say if we don't know it we're not saved?
Or, in a more global level of querying: Can there be a "bad Christian"? We'd say, yes.
One could think that it was a desperate call for prayer. The Holy Spirit may be speaking to us to do what our human minds sometimes reject.
Pretty much par for the course that you leave out words in your misunderstanding of my post.
Are you saying that you have some kind of infallible knowledge? That you have the knowledge to know what is complete and full Communion with God?
“You don’t, not really.”
Where does that pride come from that even insinuates such a thing to you. What makes you so knowledgable that you could even consider making a statement like that?
It's a dual role thing. Fr. Brian is the superior (elected office) of a weenie little community of 3 friars in the eyes of the order, and in the eyes of the Diocese he and the O.P. generally are solving their problem of who's going to run the University Parish. In other words, the Diocese doesn't care as long as the parish is being taken care of.
But everyone knows Fr. B, is da Bomb, so scuttlebutt is they want to elect him to another responsibility.
The support I provide is mostly to remind him that if he's a friar I'm a roaster and I'm gonna roast him good. And he knows he can call on me for all sorts of stuff, and he does. I am also the official security weenie owing to my massive (not!) law enforcement experience, and I do that for free.
You may not disrespect her...But many very ugly and hateful things are said about her by others.
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