The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[thefrankbaum]

John Paul II, Padre Pio, and various Catholic FReepers are all entitled to their opinions on this issue - as are the many Catholics who do not see a need to define it currently. The Church (specifically, the Magisterium) has not spoken on the issue, and it is actually open to debate within the Church. No one is or is not adhering to Catholic dogma on the issue because no such dogma exists!

JPII can teach privately as the Bishop of Rome, or he can teach authoritatively ex cathedra with the authority of Peter. It has been made very clear by the Vatican he was not teaching or arguing ex cathedra.

[1000 silverlings]

The only reason it isn’t dogma is that the Greek Orthodox won’t accept it and that throws a monkeywrench into plans to fully unite with them one day.

[Petronski]

None of that makes such “what the Catholic Church teaches.”

[Petronski]

The only reason it isn’t dogma is that the Greek Orthodox won’t accept it and that throws a monkeywrench into plans to fully unite with them one day.

Prove it.

[OLD REGGIE]

Ah, but if you read the passage in Scripture, you know that Jesus DID in fact do as his mother asked him....

Though Jesus understood perfectly well they had no wine His mother did not ask him to make some.

On the other hand,,,,,,,,,,,

Matthew 12: (Ignatius Edition RSV)
46 While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood outside, asking to speak to him.

And He refused..........................?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

refering to those Non-Catholics who continually lie about Catholics.

No one has lied about Catholic beliefs on this thread.

No one needs to because Catholic beliefs are clear to anyone who can read.

Perhaps your complaint is with all the Catholics on the Padre Pio thread who happily and blasphemously call Mary their "co-redeemer."

Read the thread for clarity. It may help you not to make this discussion "personal" by saying FReepers are "lying."

[Mad Dawg]

We are stuck in the land of bad analogies. It's what we get in theology. And analogies apply only within their sphere.

Do we call both pilots "Co-pilot". I think that one is the pilot and one the co-pilot. Is that right? If so, which is "senior"? If the "pilot" is "senior", then don't we have a use of "co" which does not imply equality?

I think of the analogy of the relationship between the Father and the Son, which may set your Unitarian teeth on edge. But we say "Eternally begotten of the Father."

Those of us who have done some begetting frequently complain that the actual begetting part was all too momentary. And the usual begetting activity involves starting something up that wasn't there before. (And, BTW, nobody that I know of has any problem with "There was a time when the Theotokos did not exist.")

But still, bearing in mind the not very good reproductive biology of the age, we say the Son is begotten of the Father.

Bad analogy. It's what we got. This is theology, after all, not a crossword puzzle.

[1000 silverlings]

That's right. "His time was not yet come". He came to do the Father's will, not the human mother's.

[mgist]

It is really bizarre how certain religions have such detailed erroneous knowledge of the "RCC" beliefs and attack us with what they consider facts. Then when they twist things into accusations we don't know what they are talking about, they say we don't study scripture. I wonder if that's how Jesus felt with the pharisees?

On the other hand, it's true, that many Catholics can't defend their religion. (Note to all Catholic parents: teach your children apologetics) Scott Hahn is a good start. Protestant converts offer the best testimony.

[1000 silverlings]

And no one is bothering the mod, just reminding them of the rules of FR.

[OLD REGGIE]

When I was a kid, all of the old bathtubs wound up stacked vertically in peoples back yards with a little statues inside.

They are still to be found in the Portugese neighborhoods of Gloucester, Mass. :)

[1000 silverlings]

You really need a claw tub too, and the rules require you paint it sky-blue

[Dr. Eckleburg]

And if it did mean "with" she would be "cum Redemptor". not even sure what that "co-redemptrix" even is, it's a mish mash of English and something

A mishmash that subtracts from the God-ordained work of Christ on the cross alone and gives it to the creature to accomplish.

Sometimes I think if a Catholic cannot understand where he errs in Mariology, he is almost too far gone. If someone can rationalize Mary on the cross with Christ and rationalize Mary paying for the sins of Christ's flock "with" Christ as a "co-redeemer," they can rationalize anything.

And therefore, they will believe anything...and nothing.

[Judith Anne]

It could even be a great analogy in Heaven, and see then face to face, not through a glass, darkly. :D

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Jefferson's Shrine, Lincoln's Shrine, Washington's Shrine, Sagamore Hill Shrine, Mount Rushmore Shrine...

And people are on their knees praying to them every day.

LOL.

[thefrankbaum]

You’re probably right, that may be one of the reasons the Church hasn’t defined it yet. We consider the EO Churches full Churches, and yes, their thoughts do carry some weight - this is how the Holy Spirit works within the Magisterium.

[Petronski]

It is really bizarre how certain religions have such detailed erroneous knowledge of the "RCC" beliefs and attack us with what they consider facts.

We shouldn't say "erroneous" in the sense of "mistaken." These misstatements of Catholic belief are deliberately false.

[rabidralph]

Of course, she is. Everyone who has ever died is in the ground, awaiting the first or second resurrection, depending on whether they accepted Christ as their savior while on Earth. Others who have never heard of Christ or lived before his time will get their chance to repent and accept him at the second resurrection.

1st Thessalonians 4:13-18
John 11:11-14
Rev. 20:4-6; 12-15

[Dr. Eckleburg]

All the Bible worshipers have to do is lean their book against the screen. It wards off evil, ya know.

No one "worships the Bible." No one prays to the Bible. No one kneels to the Bible.

So where is your evidence that any Bible-believing Christian "worships" the Bible or thinks it "wards off evil?"

Because without evidence, your accusation is empty sarcasm.

[Petronski]

No one has lied about Catholic beliefs on this thread.

LOL

No one needs to because Catholic beliefs are clear to anyone who can read.

And yet the Catholic-hating lies about them continue apace.