Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Never heard of that.
I understand your point, I've been there. Have to go. Much love and blessings. Come Holy Spirit and enkindle in the heart of your faithfull . . .
No, I’m not. Sometimes I’m just plain lazy...
My husband WAS a practicing Catholic. Now he’s a practicing Christian, Praise God.
There are Catholics who believe that baptism, the Eucharist, works, and Mary are salvific. If you’ve been on these threads long enough, you can see that for yourself. I guess my mission here is to say NO, these things are not what save you. I know you know the difference, but it’s amazing to me how many Catholics believe that these rites will eventually get them into heaven, whether the church teaches it or not.
There = their. The sisters would not be proud! GN!
Oxford historical theologian and principal of the evangelical Wycliffe Hall, Alister McGrath, reviews The Early Reformation on the Continent by Owen Chadwick in the Times Literary Supplement (June 14). Noting that Calvin “attracted eulogy and vilification in equal measure,” McGrath writes: “Jerome Bolsec, with whom Calvin crossed swords in 1551, went on to publish a scurrilous (but highly entertaining) life of Calvin in 1577. His subject, according to Bolsec, was irredeemably tedious and malicious, bloodthirsty and frustrated. He treated his own words as if they were the word of God, and allowed himself to be worshipped by his followers. In addition to frequently engaging in homosexual activity, he had an undiscriminating habit of indulging himself sexually with any female within walking distance. Thus, according to Bolsec, Calvin resigned his benefices at Noyon on account of the public exposure of his homosexuality.” According to McGrath: “Bolsec’s biography makes much more interesting reading than the more deferential biographies of Theodore Beza [Calvin’s cohort who was, himself, accused of homosexuality] and Nicolas Colladon.”
Oh dearie me. Could it be true? I thought that the Bible proscribed homosexuality. If Calvin ignored that section of the Bible, could it be true that he ignored other sections?
***My husband WAS a practicing Catholic. Now he’s a practicing Christian, Praise God.***
In my experience it’s tough being one without the other.
Here again we see that false distinction between Catholic and Christian.
“Not bad, I thought, for a midweek ‘omily.”
I like your Pastor. It sounds like an eternal homily. Thank you.
This is the site for a book by Andrew Murray, a saint from a past era on the subject of “Abide in Christ” It is a classic devotional book.
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/murray/5f00.0562/5f00.0562.c.htm
***JESUS is the light of the world, Jesus is the salt. We have no light or savor of our own. If we are to be the salt and light of the world we must abide in Jesus. Abide in Him.***
Well spoken. We are nothing without Him.
He is the Reason and the Purpose. Our lives, dedicated to ourselves are as ashes and dust.
***Here again we see that false distinction between Catholic and Christian.***
If you can hang out your shingle, come up with another interpretation of the Gospel, and wow them in the tent, then, by golly, you’re a Christian preacher and as long as the collection plate is full, you’re fully justified and therefore as fully qualified as, say, Joel Osteen or Robert Schuller.
It certainly would explain his hatred of the Catholic Church. Psychologically, he would have hated that which accused him.
It is kind of like my atheist brother who somehow has the misconception that you’re supposed to be perfect to be a Christian. The truth is that he has several behaviors that he is unwilling to change so he tries to convince himself that there is no God.
***It certainly would explain his hatred of the Catholic Church. Psychologically, he would have hated that which accused him.
It is kind of like my atheist brother who somehow has the misconception that you’re supposed to be perfect to be a Christian. The truth is that he has several behaviors that he is unwilling to change so he tries to convince himself that there is no God.***
Either you convince yourself that there is no God and you dream up behaviours, or else you convince yourself that God didn’t really mean what He says in the bible. Either way, it’s a really fascinating methodology of denying the significance of what you do.
The Reformed kinda hitch onto this. Their once saved always saved doctrine provides justification for not living up to the message of Christ.
The silly ideas that people have are not hindered by their lack of coherence or their mutual exclusivity.
Some have said that some Catholics are Christians but others aren’t. Leaves them a little leeway but they kind of give themselves away.
I see Christians doing it too. I was recently “informed” that a guy who is active in our parish used to be a druggie. I think they were trying to shock me and make me not like him. I said, good for him! By all appearances he is getting his life together.
I think the last straw for my brother was when one of his students committed suicide. At the funeral the minister kept actually saying that the kid was in hell and that other’s needed to learn from his mistake. My brother says that if that is how God is he wouldn’t want to be in Heaven. I pointed out that he is choosing to take one person’s interpretation as Gospel.
What I think fitting is that this person’s classmates actually went to the podium and physically removed the pastor and continued the service. I personally think that they did the Christian, loving thing and were the example of Christ.
A friend of mine was telling me that in confession one day she brought up a sin that she had previously confessed thinking that the priest would remember and get her drift, he told her that it is his job to forget.
For you, maybe. But not for everyone, sadly.
For you, maybe. But not for everyone, sadly.
I don't know about the Reformed but any sect that says grace is given mechanically, by the performance of an act (”ex opere operato”) whether by decision or sacrament, regardless of the condition of the participant's or administrator's heart or lifestyle at the time of the decision or sacrament provides justification for not living up to the message of Christ.
How about an example of such a sect?
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